Japan HDTV

Bob Miller wrote:


There are no figures for monitors with no tuners. You wouldn't expect
there to be since their modulation, ISDB-T, works so well that most
people would not be worried about it being locked into their display
creating a DTV.

For example with 5th gen 8-VSB receivers I doubt if there will be
anywhere near the resistance to integrated HD sets in the US.


Keep that spin going, bob.

There has been no consumer resistance to ATSC in the US. If the FCC had
taken their marching orders seriously instead of idealogically, they
would have mandated cable ready, CAM enabled, ATSC tuners for all HD
sets day one. It is well understood that people can't buy products that
aren't available.

Matthew

wrote:
Bob Miller wrote:

Jeff Rife wrote:

Bob Miller ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:


First Matthew's statement "before the Japanese consumer really gets on
the HD bandwagon". If the Japanese consumer, who has bought 1.6
million HDTV receivers in only 10 months of which 1.5 million are
integrated HDTV sets


There are no numbers that back up this claim.

The article only says that a total of 1.6M units have been sold, and
that the "units" are either HDTV-ready displays (i.e., they need an
add-on tuner), integrated HDTVs, or standalone digital tuners.


There were numbers to back it up. You might have missed them.

http://www.dibeg.org/news/news-3/news-e3.htm#dn039e

This only goes thru the end of August. September and October numbers
bring the total sale of "receivers" both stand alone and integrated to
1.6 million from the 1.346 Million at the end of August.

The article specifies how this number compares to ALL TV set sales.

"For the month of August, terrestrial digital TVs accounted for 19.1% of
all color TV sets, a decline of 1.5 percentage points from July.

Terrestrial digital TVs accounted for 7.1% of CRTs (no change from the
previous month), 89.3% of PDPs (down 0.6 points), and 38.1% of LCDs
(down 0.2 points)."

If digital TV sales at the end of August are 1.346 million which in turn
is 19.1% of all TV sales then all TV sales are 17.115 million.

There are no figures for monitors with no tuners. You wouldn't expect
there to be since their modulation, ISDB-T, works so well that most
people would not be worried about it being locked into their display
creating a DTV.

For example with 5th gen 8-VSB receivers I doubt if there will be
anywhere near the resistance to integrated HD sets in the US.

Bob Miller


So you are saying that when the 5th generation receivers are out that the
US public will embrace them and start buying integrated sets even though
most people get their HD content from a cable box or DBS box and do not
need them in their televisions. Oh yeah, I forgot. You do not care about
HD. Chip

Yes I am saying that. In Berlin they have a 95% cable and satellite
penetration and in the first NINE months terrestrial COFDM DTV receivers
were sold to 13% of all households.

The US does not even have 95%. Some say it is as low as 80% cable and
satellite penetration. I expect terrestrial to do better in the US than
in places like Berlin. Especially in big cities where consumers have
little choice between high cost cable and high cost satellite. In fact
many in cities can't get satellite so they are held hostage by cable.

Rates are far higher in the US for cable also so I think you will see a
truly incredible uptake in terrestrial broadcasting services competing
and successfully with cable and satellite.

I think HD is great. What is there not to like about HD? What I hate and
the only thing I hate is the take over of the digital transition in the
US by the Consumer Electronics Association and its members. Something
that other countries were able to withstand. We were not. Our government
got bought.

Yes I truly hate that. And it is not as if the two systems are equal are
even in the same ballpark. 8-VSB is not even in the interest of those
who pushed it in the first place. Something I think they have come to
realize. At least some of them. (Harris for one)

All that 8-VSB has done is delay the digital transition and delay HD
both OTA and because of OTA it delayed HD in cable and satellite as well
as in many other countries.

If you are for HDTV you should be dead set against 8-VSB.

Bob Miller

Matthew L. Martin wrote:
Bob Miller wrote:


There are no figures for monitors with no tuners. You wouldn't expect
there to be since their modulation, ISDB-T, works so well that most
people would not be worried about it being locked into their display
creating a DTV.

For example with 5th gen 8-VSB receivers I doubt if there will be
anywhere near the resistance to integrated HD sets in the US.


Keep that spin going, bob.

There has been no consumer resistance to ATSC in the US. If the FCC had
taken their marching orders seriously instead of idealogically, they
would have mandated cable ready, CAM enabled, ATSC tuners for all HD
sets day one. It is well understood that people can't buy products that
aren't available.

Matthew

Why leave out satellite? Why leave out broadband Internet? Have a a
media center built in? If your going to mandate mandate everything. Why
give the consumer a choice if you don't have to?

Why not encrust everything with everything.

This is only TV we are talking about. It is not life and death. Why not
mandate all safety devices found in NASCAR race cars for the family
sedan? You would actually save lives, quite a few in fact.

Why would I want to buy a cable and ATSC ready DTV set when all I want
is satellite? That is a double whammy waste.

The reality is that after a seven year waste we will now begin a
truncated digital transition that will see MAJOR competition for cable
and satellite. The only thing holding up all this now is the cable must
carry issue. If broadcasters get must carry of their multicast signal
watch out. Things will move VERY fast.

If they do not get must carry it will still happen but much more slowly.

It isn't that "people can't buy products that aren't available". They
are not available for a reason. OTA 8-VSB receivers were not put into
integrated sets because retailers didn't want to have to retrieve the
non performing large screen DTV because the customer couldn't get
reception two miles from the transmitter.

In fact retailers and manufacturers didn't get real excited about stand
alone receivers for the same reason.

Bob Miller

See in-line:


My argument is that with the right modulation, COFDM, cable and
satellite are irrelevant. The mandate is irrelevant.


And that's where we strongly disagree. With all due respect, how can
you possibly disregard the impact that subscription based services
have had on the market. I realize this utopian fantasy where a new
generation of over-the-air networks would rise up to take out the
cable companies, but you've never provided anything of substance to
detail how this would work.... Subscription based providers are
embeded, they've won out over the air the way FM has made AM radio
almost non-existant. People are willing to pay $50-$100/month for the
availability of channels and as services such as USDTV appear, the
cable companies rise to the challenge by offering composite packages
(security monitoring, broadband, digital phone service, and DVR) and
offer discounts when multiple services are combined. Combine that with
their existing strong hold on the market, the brands they established
and the new providers (again USDTV is a good example) are only good
for the niche markets they currently target...

It offends me that you refuse to look at owners of HD Ready sets as
HDTV households. Again, the over the air networks lost the battle
years ago (look at the statistics on the number of households with
subscription based television services), this is why I believe your
whole 8VSB vs COFDM argument is irrelevant to the US. We don't rely on
over-the-air so frankly who gives a **** of the infrastructure isn't
perfect. At best over-the-air reception is a backup for most US
consumers.

Where your pipe dream may be possible is in developing countries such
as China or Korea where the infrastructure is still virgin territory,
but to think the same rules can be applied to the US is Ignorant.

If you do have money invested in this, I hope you're investing in
other parts of the world, because there the model you continue to hype
does make some sense.

-Jeremy

Bob Miller wrote:
Matthew L. Martin wrote:

Bob Miller wrote:


There are no figures for monitors with no tuners. You wouldn't expect
there to be since their modulation, ISDB-T, works so well that most
people would not be worried about it being locked into their display
creating a DTV.

For example with 5th gen 8-VSB receivers I doubt if there will be
anywhere near the resistance to integrated HD sets in the US.


Keep that spin going, bob.

There has been no consumer resistance to ATSC in the US. If the FCC
had taken their marching orders seriously instead of idealogically,
they would have mandated cable ready, CAM enabled, ATSC tuners for all
HD sets day one. It is well understood that people can't buy products
that aren't available.

Matthew


Why leave out satellite? Why leave out broadband Internet? Have a a
media center built in? If your going to mandate mandate everything. Why
give the consumer a choice if you don't have to?

Why not encrust everything with everything.

This is classic bob. Change the subject instead or addressing the point
made.

Matthew


--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

Bob Miller wrote:
wrote:
Bob Miller wrote:

Jeff Rife wrote:

Bob Miller ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:


First Matthew's statement "before the Japanese consumer really gets
on the HD bandwagon". If the Japanese consumer, who has bought 1.6
million HDTV receivers in only 10 months of which 1.5 million are
integrated HDTV sets


There are no numbers that back up this claim.

The article only says that a total of 1.6M units have been sold, and
that the "units" are either HDTV-ready displays (i.e., they need an
add-on tuner), integrated HDTVs, or standalone digital tuners.


There were numbers to back it up. You might have missed them.

http://www.dibeg.org/news/news-3/news-e3.htm#dn039e

This only goes thru the end of August. September and October numbers
bring the total sale of "receivers" both stand alone and integrated to
1.6 million from the 1.346 Million at the end of August.

The article specifies how this number compares to ALL TV set sales.

"For the month of August, terrestrial digital TVs accounted for 19.1%
of all color TV sets, a decline of 1.5 percentage points from July.

Terrestrial digital TVs accounted for 7.1% of CRTs (no change from the
previous month), 89.3% of PDPs (down 0.6 points), and 38.1% of LCDs
(down 0.2 points)."

If digital TV sales at the end of August are 1.346 million which in
turn is 19.1% of all TV sales then all TV sales are 17.115 million.

There are no figures for monitors with no tuners. You wouldn't expect
there to be since their modulation, ISDB-T, works so well that most
people would not be worried about it being locked into their display
creating a DTV.

For example with 5th gen 8-VSB receivers I doubt if there will be
anywhere near the resistance to integrated HD sets in the US.

Bob Miller


So you are saying that when the 5th generation receivers are out that
the US public will embrace them and start buying integrated sets even
though most people get their HD content from a cable box or DBS box and
do not need them in their televisions. Oh yeah, I forgot. You do not
care about HD. Chip

Yes I am saying that. In Berlin they have a 95% cable and satellite
penetration and in the first NINE months terrestrial COFDM DTV receivers
were sold to 13% of all households.

The US does not even have 95%. Some say it is as low as 80% cable and
satellite penetration. I expect terrestrial to do better in the US than
in places like Berlin. Especially in big cities where consumers have
little choice between high cost cable and high cost satellite. In fact
many in cities can't get satellite so they are held hostage by cable.

Rates are far higher in the US for cable also so I think you will see a
truly incredible uptake in terrestrial broadcasting services competing
and successfully with cable and satellite.

I think HD is great. What is there not to like about HD? What I hate and
the only thing I hate is the take over of the digital transition in the
US by the Consumer Electronics Association and its members. Something
that other countries were able to withstand. We were not. Our government
got bought.

Yes I truly hate that. And it is not as if the two systems are equal are
even in the same ballpark. 8-VSB is not even in the interest of those
who pushed it in the first place. Something I think they have come to
realize. At least some of them. (Harris for one)

All that 8-VSB has done is delay the digital transition and delay HD
both OTA and because of OTA it delayed HD in cable and satellite as well
as in many other countries.

If you are for HDTV you should be dead set against 8-VSB.

Bob Miller

Gee Bob, I have had an HD set for two years. I have two now,
one with and one without a digital tuner. The one with I bought
because I was too stupid to know that all Directv HD boxes have
an HD ota tuner in them. Otherwise I would not have bought an
integrated set. I have two Directv HD boxes. All three are 8-VSB!
I love them. They get great reception. I am NOT "dead set against
8-VSB. Why should I be? It works fine where I am in Connecticut.
Chip

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

JDeats wrote:
See in-line:


My argument is that with the right modulation, COFDM, cable and
satellite are irrelevant. The mandate is irrelevant.



And that's where we strongly disagree. With all due respect, how can
you possibly disregard the impact that subscription based services
have had on the market. I realize this utopian fantasy where a new
generation of over-the-air networks would rise up to take out the
cable companies, but you've never provided anything of substance to
detail how this would work.... Subscription based providers are
embeded, they've won out over the air the way FM has made AM radio
almost non-existant. People are willing to pay $50-$100/month for the
availability of channels and as services such as USDTV appear, the
cable companies rise to the challenge by offering composite packages
(security monitoring, broadband, digital phone service, and DVR) and
offer discounts when multiple services are combined. Combine that with
their existing strong hold on the market, the brands they established
and the new providers (again USDTV is a good example) are only good
for the niche markets they currently target...

It offends me that you refuse to look at owners of HD Ready sets as
HDTV households. Again, the over the air networks lost the battle
years ago (look at the statistics on the number of households with
subscription based television services), this is why I believe your
whole 8VSB vs COFDM argument is irrelevant to the US. We don't rely on
over-the-air so frankly who gives a **** of the infrastructure isn't
perfect. At best over-the-air reception is a backup for most US
consumers.

Where your pipe dream may be possible is in developing countries such
as China or Korea where the infrastructure is still virgin territory,
but to think the same rules can be applied to the US is Ignorant.

If you do have money invested in this, I hope you're investing in
other parts of the world, because there the model you continue to hype
does make some sense.

-Jeremy

Good points but in Berlin the lie is being put to your model. They have
more cable and satellite customers than the US and that has not stopped
OTA from being extremely successful. They had a 13 % penetration of all
households in only 9 months.

I strongly disagree with our statement that cable has a strong hold on
its market BTW. Cable has little hold on its customers. They have very
high debt and a bad rep. One good push and it is all downhill.

In the end game there will be OTA broadcast, OTA mobile broadcast
(should be one and the same) and OTA two way Internet. There will be no
room for cable, fiber or satellite. IMO. And that includes no room for a
bad modulation like 8-VSB.

OTA is just so much less expensive. Any wired system has seen its best
days. Time Warner 400 trucks travel something like 12 million miles a
month. Wireless just doesn't need the maintenance and has little upfront
cost. Going into this battle wireless cost less to build than wired cost
to maintain. Same with satellite.

Satellite will continue to distribute to headends but from there it will
all be terrestrial broadcast and wireless broadband networks with the
possibility of some mid level atmospheric network.

And Ignorant is to think that infrastructure in Korea is still virgin
territory. Basically the "RULES" apply to the world today. We are all
now in the same boat. If you think the US is still some kind of special
case I think the future is going to look very weird to you. Do you
travel? Take a trip to some of those developing countries. You may be
surprised.

Bob Miller

On Wed, 1 Dec 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
Good points but in Berlin the lie is being put to your model.

Berlin does not have HDTV.

This was a city that had *two* analog color systems. I don't know if they
cleaned that up post-reunification, or used the DTV transition to do that.

I wonder what psychosis drives Bob Miller to continue in this nonsense.
Clearly, he is filled with hatred and a desire for revenge.

It can't be doing his business any good. Anybody who googles him will
come up with all this crap and run, not walk, from any deal with him.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

In article . net,
Bob Miller wrote:

Ya you think? Maybe the rest of the world too. We are the only sane
country while every other country is full of rabid teckno freaks. Or it
could be that we have a bad modulation 8-VSB while they have a better
one ISDB-T. Could it be that simple? I think so.

Or could it be that some people just can't let it go? That the ship has
long sailed and some poor souls are pounding their fists at the pier?

Could it be that plain? I think so.

In article et,
Bob Miller wrote:

Most TV sets sold today would come with COFDM receivers integrated at a
cost of as little as $25.

Broadcast network TV is losing viewership to cable or pay TV channels,
to the Internet, to video games, etc.

So no, there wouldn't be no stampede to buy HDTV tuners because you
supposedly could get better reception of CSI.