Japan HDTV

Mark Crispin wrote:
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004, Bob Miller wrote:

I expect a blowout for Christmas this year since more of the country
will come on line with HDTV thru December.


What, pray tell, does Christmas have to HDTV sales in Japan?

For your information, Christmas is not a holiday in Japan. As a
shopping day, it is about on the same scale as Valentine's Day -- an
excuse to give small gifts to family members (and especially
sweethearts) and to have a drinking party that night.

Bob Miller's ignorance about Japan is truly staggering.

In Japan Christmas is not like our Christmas exactly. But their gift
giving can be a lot wilder than "small gifts to family members". This is
the big bonus time of year in Japan and this year will be the best year
in a long time. Bonuses fuel gift giving at Christmas time in Japan and
as this article says....

http://www2.gol.com/users/kilburn/gifting.htm

"Each Christmas stores and manufacturers try to outdo each other with
bizarre gifting ideas. Gold is a popular theme.

In 1989, Hitachi offered gold plated refrigerators to brighten kitchen
drudgery. The ¥ 880,000 refrigerator was one of several products
intended to sate a fashionable lust for gold.

Mitsukoshi sold 11 golf clubs with heads of 18-carat gold. These
novelties retailed for ¥ 1.3 million each.

Another popular gold gift was imported from the UK. It was a set of 24
gold plates for ¥ 40 million.

"These are times when people will spend ¥ 30 million on mink covered
furniture. They feel it enhances the quality of life," said Akiharu
Arai, a Mitsukoshi spokesman.""

NOT ONLY will HDTV sets fit into this gift giving time but the numbers
will prove me right next February once again. And I reiterate, "I expect
a blowout for Christmas this year since more of the country will come on
line with HDTV thru December."

By the way, I've been investigating the Japanese video cellphones he's
been yammering about. There are, indeed, a few cellphones that receive
15fps video from the provider (not broadcast DTV).

Just released are a few very new cellphones (three or so models) that
receive broadcast television...*ANALOG* broadcast television. Golly
gee, a cellphone combined with a 1988-vintage Casio TV-410. There are
*no* cellphones that receive digital broadcast television.

Do some more "investigating" Mark. Here I did some for you.

http://www.deviceforge.com/news/NS4519453345.html

"According to TI, no single standard will be used worldwide. Instead, TI
believes, the most prevalent standards will be those that are open and
non-proprietary. These include Europe's "Digital Video Broadcasting,
Handheld" (DVB-H) and Japan's "Integrated Services Digital Broadcasting,
Terrestrial" (ISDB-T).

Dedicated wireless networks supporting these standards will feature
high-quality live broadcast TV (24-30 frames per second) paired with
full audio to offer a more robust mobile viewing experience versus the
one-to-15-frames-per-second streaming capability offered via cellular,
TI says."

http://www.itmedia.co.jp/mobile/0308/08/sanyo.html
http://www.bargainpda.com/default.as...wComments=true
http://www.wirelesswatch.jp/modules....rticle&sid=741
http://www.japancorp.net/Article.Asp?Art_ID=5681
http://www.dvb.org/index.php?id=278
http://www.dvb.org/documents//DVB-H_Outline.pdf
http://press.nokia.com/PR/200411/966982_5.html


Nor are there likely to be any digital broadcast television cellphones
any time soon. Leaving aside the technical issues, the 15fps video
services are premium services that are expected to generate considerable
revenue at anywhere from .2 to 2 yen (depending upon phone and
technology) per 128 byte packet.

All of the services planned and in testing have frame rates of 24-30
fps. DVB-H, T-DMB, S-DMB, ISDB-T and DMB-T are all COFDM modulations
that are and will be used to deliver high quality DTV to cell phones.

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/2004...7141944480.htm
http://www.newsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=25379
http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?topic=75402

Nokia is in testing right now in Pittsburgh with cell phones that
receive DVB-H DTV.

What Mark is talking about is 3G stuff that is delivered over cell phone
spectrum ala Sprint. It is junk. It is dead on arrival.

Bob Miller

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Ummmm... It might have to do with them being a culture of rabid techno
freaks.



Bob Miller wrote:

With only 12 million homes capable of HDTV so far, 28 million by end
of 2005, Japan has sold 1.6 million digital TV sets in their first
year of broadcasting with multicasting and cell phone reception both
coming next year.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/newse/20041129wo62.htm

Bob Miller


--
Ric Seyler

RicSeyler wrote:
Ummmm... It might have to do with them being a culture of rabid techno
freaks.



Bob Miller wrote:

With only 12 million homes capable of HDTV so far, 28 million by end
of 2005, Japan has sold 1.6 million digital TV sets in their first
year of broadcasting with multicasting and cell phone reception both
coming next year.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/newse/20041129wo62.htm

Bob Miller



Ya you think? Maybe the rest of the world too. We are the only sane
country while every other country is full of rabid teckno freaks. Or it
could be that we have a bad modulation 8-VSB while they have a better
one ISDB-T. Could it be that simple? I think so.

It seems that it is just one of those things an advanced country like
the US will never know or be able to find out.

Unless of course as Qualcomm, Crown Castle, XMRadio, Sirius, 802.11a and
g, WiLan and almost every other successful RF technology of the present
and near future are created and continue to grow using GROWN UP
modulations based on COFDM we might WAKE UP! Who knows?

Bob Miller

Matthew L. Martin ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
"Although prices of digital TV sets have fallen, even 22-inch sets still
cost more than 200,000 yen. Lowering prices is the key to increasing the
number of households capable of receiving digital TV broadcasting".

That's about $2000 for a 22 inch set. That's quite a lot more expensive
than in the US. I would guess those prices have to drop substantially
before the Japanese consumer really gets on the HD bandwagon.

It also means that the *tuner* cost is basically irrelevant, which could
means that adding them doesn't change sales one bit. That's the exact
same situation as in the US with TVs in the $2000 price range.

--
Jeff Rife |
SPAM bait: | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/AngryTVGod.gif
|
|

Jeff Rife wrote:
Matthew L. Martin ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:

"Although prices of digital TV sets have fallen, even 22-inch sets still
cost more than 200,000 yen. Lowering prices is the key to increasing the
number of households capable of receiving digital TV broadcasting".

That's about $2000 for a 22 inch set. That's quite a lot more expensive
than in the US. I would guess those prices have to drop substantially
before the Japanese consumer really gets on the HD bandwagon.


It also means that the *tuner* cost is basically irrelevant, which could
means that adding them doesn't change sales one bit. That's the exact
same situation as in the US with TVs in the $2000 price range.

First Matthew's statement "before the Japanese consumer really gets on
the HD bandwagon". If the Japanese consumer, who has bought 1.6 million
HDTV receivers in only 10 months of which 1.5 million are integrated
HDTV sets, is not on the "bandwagon" yet what must that bandwagon be? A
billion set a month?

And what does it say for the "bandwagon" the US is on with less than ONE
percent of our households with any kind of OTA receiver?

As to Jeff's dismissal of Economics One thru one hundred I would say I
think any extra cost diminishes demand. Any extra tuner not needed is a
waste of time and materials.

But he is right as far as the reason for slow sales in the US. The price
of 8-VSB tuners is a small part of the tragedy that is our digital
transition. It would not hurt if we could have 8-VSB receivers that are
as cheap as the $58 COFDM receivers sold in the UK and the higher
prices do slow sales but the real reason is that 8-VSB receivers don't
work up to any standards, there are none, and there are none for a
reason. No one could make a receiver up to the most minimum of standards.

I don't think even the 5th gen receiver could meet such a standard so
don't expect anyone to propose one any time soon.

Not having a receiver that works very well impedes the transition by
stifling all the plans that would be being pursued like USDTV if a
retailer, service provider or broadcaster could rely on there being
receivers that didn't require a service call to install.

USDTV is now going to be financed by a number of broadcasters probably
based on the imminent arrival of the 5th gen receivers. The ones that
work pretty well.

Bob Miller

Bob Miller wrote:

RicSeyler wrote:

Ummmm... It might have to do with them being a culture of rabid
techno freaks.




Ya you think? Maybe the rest of the world too. We are the only sane
country while every other country is full of rabid teckno freaks. Or
it could be that we have a bad modulation 8-VSB while they have a
better one ISDB-T. Could it be that simple? I think so.

LOL Gotcha Bob you hate 8-VSB. I still gotta go with the society of
techno freaks and the prime motivator. :-)



It seems that it is just one of those things an advanced country like
the US will never know or be able to find out.

Unless of course as Qualcomm, Crown Castle, XMRadio, Sirius, 802.11a
and g, WiLan and almost every other successful RF technology of the
present and near future are created and continue to grow using GROWN
UP modulations based on COFDM we might WAKE UP! Who knows?

Bob Miller


--
Ric Seyler

Bob Miller wrote:
With only 12 million homes capable of HDTV so far, 28 million by end of
2005, Japan has sold 1.6 million digital TV sets in their first year of
broadcasting with multicasting and cell phone reception both coming next
year.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/newse/20041129wo62.htm


I know one thing. The Japanese are not buying HDTVs for mobile use.

Matthew

Bob Miller ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
First Matthew's statement "before the Japanese consumer really gets on
the HD bandwagon". If the Japanese consumer, who has bought 1.6 million
HDTV receivers in only 10 months of which 1.5 million are integrated
HDTV sets

There are no numbers that back up this claim.

The article only says that a total of 1.6M units have been sold, and that
the "units" are either HDTV-ready displays (i.e., they need an add-on tuner),
integrated HDTVs, or standalone digital tuners.

--
Jeff Rife | "I'm putting on a happy face...I'm taking the
SPAM bait: | high road.... It's just three hours out of my
| life, and, oh yes, I'm drinking straight vodka."
| -- Caroline Duffy, "Caroline In The City"

Jeff Rife wrote:
Bob Miller ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:

First Matthew's statement "before the Japanese consumer really gets on
the HD bandwagon". If the Japanese consumer, who has bought 1.6 million
HDTV receivers in only 10 months of which 1.5 million are integrated
HDTV sets


There are no numbers that back up this claim.

The article only says that a total of 1.6M units have been sold, and that
the "units" are either HDTV-ready displays (i.e., they need an add-on tuner),
integrated HDTVs, or standalone digital tuners.

There were numbers to back it up. You might have missed them.

http://www.dibeg.org/news/news-3/news-e3.htm#dn039e

This only goes thru the end of August. September and October numbers
bring the total sale of "receivers" both stand alone and integrated to
1.6 million from the 1.346 Million at the end of August.

The article specifies how this number compares to ALL TV set sales.

"For the month of August, terrestrial digital TVs accounted for 19.1% of
all color TV sets, a decline of 1.5 percentage points from July.

Terrestrial digital TVs accounted for 7.1% of CRTs (no change from the
previous month), 89.3% of PDPs (down 0.6 points), and 38.1% of LCDs
(down 0.2 points)."

If digital TV sales at the end of August are 1.346 million which in turn
is 19.1% of all TV sales then all TV sales are 17.115 million.

There are no figures for monitors with no tuners. You wouldn't expect
there to be since their modulation, ISDB-T, works so well that most
people would not be worried about it being locked into their display
creating a DTV.

For example with 5th gen 8-VSB receivers I doubt if there will be
anywhere near the resistance to integrated HD sets in the US.

Bob Miller

Bob Miller wrote:
Jeff Rife wrote:
Bob Miller ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:

First Matthew's statement "before the Japanese consumer really gets on
the HD bandwagon". If the Japanese consumer, who has bought 1.6
million HDTV receivers in only 10 months of which 1.5 million are
integrated HDTV sets


There are no numbers that back up this claim.

The article only says that a total of 1.6M units have been sold, and
that the "units" are either HDTV-ready displays (i.e., they need an
add-on tuner), integrated HDTVs, or standalone digital tuners.

There were numbers to back it up. You might have missed them.

http://www.dibeg.org/news/news-3/news-e3.htm#dn039e

This only goes thru the end of August. September and October numbers
bring the total sale of "receivers" both stand alone and integrated to
1.6 million from the 1.346 Million at the end of August.

The article specifies how this number compares to ALL TV set sales.

"For the month of August, terrestrial digital TVs accounted for 19.1% of
all color TV sets, a decline of 1.5 percentage points from July.

Terrestrial digital TVs accounted for 7.1% of CRTs (no change from the
previous month), 89.3% of PDPs (down 0.6 points), and 38.1% of LCDs
(down 0.2 points)."

If digital TV sales at the end of August are 1.346 million which in turn
is 19.1% of all TV sales then all TV sales are 17.115 million.

There are no figures for monitors with no tuners. You wouldn't expect
there to be since their modulation, ISDB-T, works so well that most
people would not be worried about it being locked into their display
creating a DTV.

For example with 5th gen 8-VSB receivers I doubt if there will be
anywhere near the resistance to integrated HD sets in the US.

Bob Miller

So you are saying that when the 5th generation receivers are out that the
US public will embrace them and start buying integrated sets even though
most people get their HD content from a cable box or DBS box and do not
need them in their televisions. Oh yeah, I forgot. You do not care about
HD. Chip

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