OT Has w7 slowed down recently

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Not quite. Many people outside the USA contribute to both the Linux
kernel and the many packages that come as part os a distro, etc. I'd be
surprised if there weren't also *some* non-US citizens contributing to
the other OSs.

Contributing, of course. But they are all American initiatives
(remember Linux is just the kernel - the rest comes courtesy of
Stallman, as it were).

--
SteveT

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Not quite that simple. I'm typing this now on a 'personal computer' that
runs RISC OS and runs it on a native ARM system. I has all the types of
user app people expect - wordprocessor, spreadsheet, email, webbrowser,
etc. It has a desktop GUI, I can produce 'C' (and Fortran and BASIC)
progs on it, etc, etc.

I don't understand why you are telling us this. The only platform you
won't be able to run RO on in the future - so far as we can tell right
now - is an ARM machine sold with Windows 8 on it.

Except it's not the only one; I've already listed many other platforms
which use secure boot and therefore won't run RO.

So why are you complaining about W8, and not (for instance) the iPad?
Where you hoping to buy an ARM-based Windows 8 tablet and install RO on
it? If so, you won't be able to. You'll have to buy one with Android
(etc) on it, instead. What's the problem? If you aren't planning on
doing that, then - again - what's the problem?

When you can show me some evidence - *any* evidence - that you won't be
able to run RO on desktop machines in the future, then I shall share
your concern.

It seems to me that you are imagining a scenario, then getting het up
about it. What a strange thing to do.

What you are doing is simply falling blindly back into the habituation
that 'PC' = 'computer' = 'hardware + windows + standard windows apps" and
the making a self-referential circular argument as your case. :-)

Don't be ridiculous, Jim; my entire professional life has revolved
around computing in all its manifest forms. I know exactly what
constitutes a computer and what constitutes a PC. You really must
argue from a better position than this. It reminds me of the first
rule lawyers learn: "When losing the argument, impugn your opponent."

But you don't give a damn for those of us who may prefer to use ARM based
machines for a 'desktop PC'? You want freedom yourself, but not as a
'principle' for all. Just for you?

Getting irritable, Jim? Sounds like it.

I'm questioning where your "principle" comes from. In the case of the
Intel x86-based PC then the principle comes from IBM, who designed the
concept as an open and extensible architecture.

In the case of an ARM-based computer, the principle seems quite a lot
weaker, as it is necessarily somewhat different from the original IBM
concept. However, I support your position - I wouldn't like to see ANY
PC-like desktop computer locked to a particular OS (therefore I don't
like Apple PCs, as they - or some of them - are locked).

And in the case of an ARM-based Windows 8 tablet, which won't run any
existing Windows applications or any x86 code, then there would seem to
be no basis for claiming a "principle" at all. It's a brand new
product. You'll buy it or you won't. If you don't want locking in,
don't buy ARM-W8, and don't buy Apple. The choice is yours.

Again, though: find me some reasonably convincing evidence that MS
intends to lock down desktop hardware, and I'll publicly change my
position and agree with you.

Until then, please stop spreading FUD - it's beneath you.

--
SteveT

In message , Steve Thackery
writes
The only thing that matters to me is that I *can* buy something else (a
computer not locked to Windows, in this case) if I want to.
You're free to buy an Apple Mac, so long as you don't mind paying top
dollar for something just a little better and very expensive programmes
to boot.
--
Clive

On 15/05/2012 23:03, J G Miller wrote:
On Tuesday, May 15th, 2012, at 20:56:26 at +0100, Adrian C wrote:

Linux professionals are trained like Doctors.
Windows professionals are trained like Veterinarians.

I think your analogy is the wrong way around.

I don't but whatever...


Windoze professionals will generally be clueless about
Linsux and BSD systems

lol.

--
Adrian C

Clive wrote:

You're free to buy an Apple Mac, so long as you don't mind paying top
dollar for something just a little better and very expensive programmes
to boot.

And if fact I'm free to buy any desktop hardware I like (apart from
Apple), as none of it is locked.

My point is that there is no evidence that this situation will change,
as far as desktop hardware is concerned. Only brand new products
(ARM-based Windows 8 tablets) will be locked (along with the long list
of others I gave previously, which nobody seems to be complaining
about).

Why do we complain about Microsoft locking W8 tablets when Apple
already does the same?

--
SteveT

In message , Steve Thackery
writes
I'm questioning where your "principle" comes from. In the case of the
Intel x86-based PC then the principle comes from IBM, who designed the
concept as an open and extensible architecture.
I remember buying a PC without a system installed but it came with two
discs, one was I think Win95 but the other was definitely IBM O/S.
--
Clive

On 14/05/2012 13:08, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In , Peter Duncanson
wrote:
On Sun, 13 May 2012 12:24:10 +0100, Jim
wrote:


Yes, this is a consequence of people being trained/habituated into
"Computer = Windows" with no awaress of though of any alternatives.
Although it is interesting that many seem happy to adopt android (or
ithingies) for non-desktop uses. Perhaps because it falls outside the
'home/office' mental compartment.

I'm sorry - people don't "adopt" Android.

So what word seems appropriate to you in the above statement?

They buy a device which does what they want. The device as marketed and
purchased is a unit that does certain things. The vast majority of
customers are interested in what it does, not how it does it or what the
various hardware and software building blocks are inside the case.

I agree. What is interesting is that they buy it without making the same
assumptions as they might when buying what they might call a 'PC'. In each
case they don't think of any possible distinction between the hardware and
the code that runs on it. For me, the point is that it falls outside what
they have been trained/habituated to expect for a 'PC', so they don't take
for granted that it will behave 'like Windows'.

I think the key point is that like many, I have no requirement to run
Photoshop, or Excel, or Delphi, Crysis, or Ghost Recon Advanced Warfare
on my phone or on my satnav (to note a couple of Linux based devices I
use).

In other words, this really just comes down to software availability in
many cases.

I personally don't like the windows interface particularly, and there
are some architectural aspects of it that I loathe with a passion (like
drive letters - in this day and age?) however it does run the software I
need, and its compatible with systems that clients have built their
businesses around.

The difficulty with talking about this is the extent to which buyers
conflate things without much thought or awarness. Symptoms of having been
trained/habituated in a specific way.




--
Cheers,

John.

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On 15/05/2012 20:56, Adrian C wrote:
On 15/05/2012 12:58, J G Miller wrote:
On Monday, May 14th, 2012, at 17:33:31h +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote:

But nowdays distros like *buntu tend to come with a set of apps that
seem
to me would cover most home/office tasks, and I've not had to install a
'driver' for anything. My printers, scanners, etc, just work.

Most modern all-in-one printers probably don't.


That is the big problem with Linux Mint -- everything works and most
proprietary drivers are included, and it is even easier to install
than Windoze.

That is another aspect which is being overlooked -- most people never
install Windoze because it is already on their system so they do not
know how to install an OS on their PC.

What would they get out of doing that? There are highly trained
professionals that have done the job for them. Do you expect customers
buying a new car to assemble it from a flat pack kit of parts?

Linux professionals are trained like Doctors.
Windows professionals are trained like Veterinarians. (more complicated
platform)

Linux professionals historically struggle at shoring up windows security
problems of the afflicted, so we get pointless posturing threads like
this, and, er... Jim.

It's the 'different camp' mentality and pointing noses down at Windows
people, particularly windows home users that's stupid. Yes, they have
their problems - Understand and help 'em!

It always intrigues me that people have a pop at windows users as if
they were a special case of particularly slow sheep[1]. If anything it
shows a certain naivety of any factors outside of rather narrow
technical considerations. It rather reminds me of engineers discussing
what development environment they should use for a project, and then
being bemused that management selected something that none of them
thinks is "optimal". The fact that management went with the system that
they actually already owned, had the hardware platforms to run, and knew
the engineers had hundreds of man years proven track record developing
with it as well as vast libraries of tested code to call on counted for
more in the final analysis.

[1] you want to try dealing with some non techie mac users - selecting
the platform because its "standard in their industry" and proudly
proclaiming a complete ignorance of all things techie.

However the wind direction is turning, and iOS and Android are showing
what can work 'out of the box' (without an install CD) and crucially
interoperate. On the other hand Google Chrome OS / Chromium is going
nowhere - which is a shame, that is a great pre-installed cloud thing
that should have its day. Perhaps.

Yes its ironic in a way that Android is achieving the kind of linux
penetration that most advocates would not have even dared dream about,
and yet its doing it in such a way that most of its users have not even
realised!

I use Windows and Linux here. They have different server / client roles
for me (or sometimes the same), and the last thing I will be found
running here is a pre-packaged distribution with ubuntu like bundleware
on either.

But joe public is not me, and probably neither is he you. There is
middle ground we should all be playing on rather than behaving like left
and right political extremists burning each other up.

Peace (Why not?)

Well said that man!


--
Cheers,

John.

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In message , John
Rumm writes
however it does run the software I need, and its compatible with
systems that clients have built their businesses around.
Since this thread started I've been keeping an eye out for what business
runs, and it seems that at least 90% run XP.
--
Clive

On 14/05/2012 17:28, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In bit.myzen.co.uk,
Roderick wrote:
In , Peter Duncanson
wrote:

Yes, I know how to do all that as well, but 99% of PC buyers just
want to plug it in and use Windows.

It's a bit more than that. Windows is only a small part of it from the
user's point of view. They want to use the standard, common,
applications that run on a Windows PC.

They also want telephone technical support when they can't understand
how to do something. They want to know how to run programs, how to load
and save files, how to connect to a wireless network etc, all explained
click by click in words of no more than two syllables. How many
companies provide this for Linux?

Can't give you any numbers. But Red Hat, for example, seem to make a decent
turnover out of providing support.

Indeed, and they expect you to pay significant amounts for their
enterprise class packages as well - far more than I can imagine many
home users would be able to fork out for. One sever we rent with dead
rat on it costs more per year than the outright purchase cost of several
PCs - and a good proportion of that cost is the cost of the OS support.


--
Cheers,

John.

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