DSO question

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:29:18 +0000, Mark
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:19:29 +0000, Mark Carver
wrote:

On 20/01/2011 10:58, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:37:23 +0000, Mark Carver

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on
for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have
already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

Apparently some people, despite months of nagging, don't do
anything
until the event has happened, (and then complain !)

It also
reduces the workload on Arqiva with the amount of work they
have to do
overnight, it's spread over two nights, 14 days apart.

Good point. I'm not sure how much work would be left to do
for the
actual switchover. Won't it be a matter of just flicking a
switch or
two?

No ! The old analogue transmitters are connected to the
transmission
aerials with 6in feeders, that within the building is more
akin to
plumbing. So to connect up the new high power DTT transmitters
there's a
lot of mechanical work involved. Of course a lot is prep'ed
before hand,
but even so there's an hour or two of frantic effort to switch
the
feeders over.

You get some idea of what's involved from Stockland Hill's DSO
photos

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/stockla.../dso/index.php

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation
(analogue and
DTT) transposers are installed in the months leading up to
DSO. On DSO
night it is more or less a flick of a switch at most of those,
but of
course in some areas there are several dozen to visit
overnight.

Thanks for the post. I don't quite understand why new aeriels
are
required though.

A digital TV needs a digital aerial. We have discussed this
previously :-)



I think he's talking about the transmitter aerials? We all know
you need a digital Rx aerial to get DTTV!

On 20/01/2011 19:26, Woody wrote:
"Mark wrote in message

Interestingly however, the Channel Islands were done in one big
step over night, and also interestingly there was no DTT
service at all there until DSO, so everybody who still wanted
terrestrial reception had to buy a box. I suspect because the
CI didn't have Freeview until last year, use and penetration of
Sky and Freesat is much higher ?

The problems with the CIs was French TV. They had to wait until
channels were cleared.

Nothing needed clearing AIUI, in fact the DSO date was brought forward
at relatively short notice from 2013 to Nov 2010. Fremont Point is using
the same allocations for the three muxes it transmits, that were used
for analogue.

As for the two weeks apart, yes it is to make sure people have
got digi boxes - if BBC2 (or in some cases ITV) disappears they
will sit up and take notice.

It's always BBC 2 that vanishes at DSO 1, but there's sometimes a
reshuffle if PSB 1 has been given an analogue allocation for one of the
other analogues. For instance at Angus PSB 1 was allocated Ch 60, the
home of STV. So BBC 2 closed on Ch 63 at DSO, and STV took over Ch 63
until DSO 2.


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

On 20/01/2011 19:31, Woody wrote:

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation
(analogue and DTT) transposers are installed in the months
leading up to DSO. On DSO night it is more or less a flick of a
switch at most of those, but of course in some areas there are


Well, nearly.

On the small relays a very clever transposer is used. If it picks
up analogue on a given channel it will transpose to a different
programmed channel and power.

When the analogue goes off it shuts down.

When the signal comes back in digital on the same or a different
pre-programmed channel the transposer comes back to life and
rebroadcasts at whatever power and on whatever channel is set in
digital. Unless a unit fails there is no need to visit the site
until the next day or two to take it off for a short time to do
the spectrum plots.

Interesting, that's what I originally thought, but an Arqiva engineer
told me last month that a visit is still required on DSO night. Whatever
is actually the case, relay stations are comparatively trivial to deal
with.


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

On 20/01/2011 19:31, Woody wrote:

When the signal comes back in digital on the same or a different
pre-programmed channel the transposer comes back to life and
rebroadcasts at whatever power and on whatever channel is set in
digital. Unless a unit fails there is no need to visit the site
until the next day or two to take it off for a short time to do
the spectrum plots.

No that can't be right, look at the timelines in these Arqiva documents
between the parent swiching, and the last relay coming on line,
typically 12 hours.

http://www.arqiva.com/corporate/press/archive/2010/2010-10-20%20-%20Digital%20Switch%20Over%20completed%20for%20Ros emarkie%20transmitter%20group.pdf

http://www.arqiva.com/corporate/press/archive/2010/2010-10-27%20-%20Digital%20Switch%20Over%20completed%20for%20Tor osay%20transmitter%20group.pdf


Also the relay timelines on page 2 he-

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/transmitternetwork/tools__and__resources/almanac/installer_newsletters_2009_pdfs/STV_North_Installers_1_M_O_Angus_FINAL.pdf

All of those documents imply that the relay sites require visits on DSO
night/next day ?


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:41:51 +0000, Scott
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:29:18 +0000, Mark
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:19:29 +0000, Mark Carver
wrote:

On 20/01/2011 10:58, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:37:23 +0000, Mark Carver

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

Apparently some people, despite months of nagging, don't do anything
until the event has happened, (and then complain !)

It also
reduces the workload on Arqiva with the amount of work they have to do
overnight, it's spread over two nights, 14 days apart.

Good point. I'm not sure how much work would be left to do for the
actual switchover. Won't it be a matter of just flicking a switch or
two?

No ! The old analogue transmitters are connected to the transmission
aerials with 6in feeders, that within the building is more akin to
plumbing. So to connect up the new high power DTT transmitters there's a
lot of mechanical work involved. Of course a lot is prep'ed before hand,
but even so there's an hour or two of frantic effort to switch the
feeders over.

You get some idea of what's involved from Stockland Hill's DSO photos

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/stockla.../dso/index.php

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation (analogue and
DTT) transposers are installed in the months leading up to DSO. On DSO
night it is more or less a flick of a switch at most of those, but of
course in some areas there are several dozen to visit overnight.

Thanks for the post. I don't quite understand why new aeriels are
required though.

A digital TV needs a digital aerial. We have discussed this
previously :-)

I upgraded my aeriel to digital by sticking some gloves on it. ;-)
(Now it has "digits").
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:19:59 +0000, Mark Carver
wrote:

On 20/01/2011 19:31, Woody wrote:

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation
(analogue and DTT) transposers are installed in the months
leading up to DSO. On DSO night it is more or less a flick of a
switch at most of those, but of course in some areas there are


Well, nearly.

On the small relays a very clever transposer is used. If it picks
up analogue on a given channel it will transpose to a different
programmed channel and power.

When the analogue goes off it shuts down.

When the signal comes back in digital on the same or a different
pre-programmed channel the transposer comes back to life and
rebroadcasts at whatever power and on whatever channel is set in
digital. Unless a unit fails there is no need to visit the site
until the next day or two to take it off for a short time to do
the spectrum plots.

Interesting, that's what I originally thought, but an Arqiva engineer
told me last month that a visit is still required on DSO night. Whatever
is actually the case, relay stations are comparatively trivial to deal
with.

I found it strange that the DSO booklet that came through the door
recently said that relay stations take longer to switch over and may
not be available until the day after switchover.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:03:58 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

Rick wrote:

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
Rick wrote:

I couldn't think of a single person using analogue, years before
Mendip went DSO.

I came across a bloke in a nice house with five of them living in it,
and they had analogue only, and the C5 was obliterated by the VCR RF
output. He was a total nutter though, and I think the kids were living
for the day when they could move out.


I've been out of the trade now for a number of years Bill, however I
still occasionally keep in touch with the local branch of one of the
largest aerial wholesalers in the country, apparently since DSO the
aerial side of things have died a death and according to friends in the
business it's mainly only the lower power COM muxes that still provide
them with any aerial work, that, retuning, extra outlets etc, however,
without wishing to sound too pessimistic, I reckon after mid 2012 even
that work will eventually taper off.
I'm still amazed by the coverage now the PSB multiplexes are on full
power, I pick up rock solid (BBC) reception on the side of a group C/D
aerial from a group A transmitter (Stockland Hill) located around 50
miles away, back in the seventies with a masthead amplifier and the
correct roof mounted aerial I could receive just about watchable
Westward ITV analogue, until they built an office block in the town
centre and it then became unwatchable, of course it was much more
exciting getting out of region ITV programmes back then

Yes, I think the power of the post DSO-transmitters is far too high.
Apart from CCI issues I can receive Winter Hill here, yet in the
analogue days it was a barely discernible signal.

I had to fit an attenuator for DTT and that's before the power is
boosted. God knows what will happen after DSO.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Jan 20, 11:59*am, "Rick" wrote:
"Mark Carver" wrote in message

...

On 20/01/2011 11:29, Rick wrote:

In other countries the high power DTT services have been added alongside
analogue, because those countries have enough spectrum to dual operate.
Remember VHF is used as well as UHF in some countries, we don't have that
luxury here, as we did for the 405 to 625 switchover for instance.

Thanks for the explanation Mark (right on the money as per usual

Yes. Another important point is that, in many countries, terrestrial
reception is used by fewer people than satellite or cable. In some
countries it's only used by a tiny minority. Whereas in the UK we have
~24m households, ~10m using satellite, ~4m using cable. The leaves
~10m reliant on terrestrial - plus some of the satellite and cable
homes will also be using Freeview on another set.

Cheers,
David.

On Jan 20, 2:18*pm, Bill Wright wrote:
Mark wrote:
Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

I've been looking closely at the issue of the 'analogue' rump -- the
people who are still using analogue exclusively as DSO approaches -- in
an East Midlands town, and I'm actually struggling to find any
candidates! I think it's something like 1%, six months before DSO.

My Mum! She has a fairly decent waltham/belmont diplexed aerial + mast
head amp. Three TVs (main one knackered, but still in use). DVD
recorder she doesn't know how to use to play, never mind record.

I've shown her our freesat set-up, but I think she thinks it looks a
bit complicated. A digital TV connected to her aerial now will receive
two lots of BBC channels and no ITV channels. ITV analogue wouldn't
fill a widescreen and she doesn't want stretchy-vision. Would probably
go for a plasma, but don't want a year's 4x3 viewing to burn into the
screen! Post switchover she'll get all the channels she wants with the
existing aerials AFAICT, so she'll probably get a new TV during the
switchover itself.

Oh, and I have a colleague who reuses to buy a new TV until his
existing one breaks. Simple as that. Not spending a penny until he has
to. Mind you, he didn't even take a free freeview box that just needed
a £5 replacement remote control. Some people aren't interested.


It's a shame Freesat wasn't finished (all SD and HD PSB channels at
least) well before DSO, because I think that route would have saved a
lot of people a lot of hassle. But then, we wouldn't have needed DSO
then, would we? ;-)

Cheers
David.

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 04:36:20 -0800 (PST),
"
wrote:

Oh, and I have a colleague who reuses to buy a new TV until his
existing one breaks. Simple as that. Not spending a penny until he has
to. Mind you, he didn't even take a free freeview box that just needed
a £5 replacement remote control. Some people aren't interested.

It's a good philosopy to only replace things when they break. It's
one of the failings of our consumer society that we continually
upgrade and chuck working products away.

wrt DTT, then people who aren't interested in the extra channels have
little to gain from "going digital" while they still have an analogue
service.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.