BBC NQHD (Not Quite HD) and likely to remain so.

On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 19:06:50 +0100, Tony Quinn
wrote:

In message , Zathras
writes
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 08:07:47 +0100, Alan
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 07:04:46 +0100, Mark Carver
wrote:

. . .once you'd put the faders the other way round ;-)

Didn't radio and television faders work in opposite directions?

..and VT ones worked fully open where Radio ones didn't..

But you didn't want all three fully open

eh?

--
Z

In article , Alan White
writes
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 07:04:46 +0100, Mark Carver
wrote:

. . .once you'd put the faders the other way round ;-)

Didn't radio and television faders work in opposite directions?

Nope.

And (as of last year) there was at least one desk in live nightly TV use
in the BBC that has faders the sensible way round (i.e. shut away from
you).

It was a joy to behold, but the switchover was a classic example of
market share triumphing over common sense.

Now where have we heard of that recently? I might have mentioned DAB,
and digital TV, and shortscreen (and...), but I think I got away with
it.

Cheers,

Nedd.

--
SimonM
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In article , Tony Quinn
writes
In message , Zathras
writes
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 08:07:47 +0100, Alan
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 07:04:46 +0100, Mark Carver
wrote:

. . .once you'd put the faders the other way round ;-)

Didn't radio and television faders work in opposite directions?

..and VT ones worked fully open where Radio ones didn't..

But you didn't want all three fully open

Meanwhile, in dubbing, I had to get my daily fix of insert edit buzz...

Incidentally, whilst tidying up earlier today, I came across a news item
in Wireless World (April 1963, p.169) about an Ampex VR-1500 that looks
like a two-inch _helical_scan_ machine. The technical details are scant,
presumably straight from a press release, and give no details of the
format except:

linear tape speed 5"/sec,
525/625 lines
"designed for closed-circuit television recording"

It doesn't sound like it was aimed at broadcast, but even so, I didn't
know anyone made a production 2" helical system. Weird or wot?

(later, post Googling) Apparently it was a forerunner of a 2" helical
system that did do colour and was used professionally in the US.

I wonder if it did insert edits?
--
SimonM
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On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 12:09:40 +0100, SpamTrapSeeSig
wrote:

Didn't radio and television faders work in opposite directions?

Nope.

In the '60s?

--
Alan White
Mozilla Firefox and Forte Agent.
Twenty-eight miles NW of Glasgow, overlooking Lochs Long and Goil in Argyll, Scotland.
Webcam and weather:- http://windycroft.co.uk/weather

In article , Alan White
writes
On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 12:09:40 +0100, SpamTrapSeeSig
wrote:

Didn't radio and television faders work in opposite directions?

Nope.

In the '60s?

Before my time, but I think TV at LG used Type-B which would've been
rotary. Type-C & D were the right way round (Painton quadrants). Stop 20
(normal) was intended to be on a radius to the mixer's eyes.

The M-series Calrec desk, circa 1988, had optional specially made
quadrants, I think by P+G, with a flat track beneath and 'pretend'
quadrants above, with a complex mechanical coupling. This was the first
pic. I found on-line:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...d1283656469-sh
ow-your-consoles-calrec-dark-sml-1.jpg, but these look turned-round.

--
SimonM
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On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 13:41:26 +0100, SpamTrapSeeSig
wrote:

Before my time, but I think TV at LG used Type-B which would've been
rotary. Type-C & D were the right way round (Painton quadrants). Stop 20
(normal) was intended to be on a radius to the mixer's eyes.

It may be that my seventy-three year old brain is at fault but I have a
nagging doubt... :-)

--
Alan White
Mozilla Firefox and Forte Agent.
Twenty-eight miles NW of Glasgow, overlooking Lochs Long and Goil in Argyll, Scotland.
Webcam and weather:- http://windycroft.co.uk/weather

In article , Alan White
writes
On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 13:41:26 +0100, SpamTrapSeeSig
wrote:

Before my time, but I think TV at LG used Type-B which would've been
rotary. Type-C & D were the right way round (Painton quadrants). Stop 20
(normal) was intended to be on a radius to the mixer's eyes.

It may be that my seventy-three year old brain is at fault but I have a
nagging doubt... :-)

Dubbing at LG was right-way-round (but in my day Theatre 2 and the East
Tower were all rotaries!). Dunno about TMS, but I think it had SSL so
was probably wrong way round.

VT were a law unto themselves (antilog???), then there were those
twin-track Studers with faders on, and RD4/4s (in radio), IIRC they
opened upwards.
--
SimonM
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On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 18:01:31 +0100, SpamTrapSeeSig
wrote:

Dubbing at LG was right-way-round (but in my day Theatre 2 and the East
Tower were all rotaries!). Dunno about TMS, but I think it had SSL so
was probably wrong way round.

VT were a law unto themselves (antilog???), then there were those
twin-track Studers with faders on, and RD4/4s (in radio), IIRC they
opened upwards.

I don't think we're discussing the same thing. I was comparing desks in
radio studios and desks in the sound control room of television studios.

--
Alan White
Mozilla Firefox and Forte Agent.
Twenty-eight miles NW of Glasgow, overlooking Lochs Long and Goil in Argyll, Scotland.
Webcam and weather:- http://windycroft.co.uk/weather

In article , Alan White
writes
On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 18:01:31 +0100, SpamTrapSeeSig
wrote:

Dubbing at LG was right-way-round (but in my day Theatre 2 and the East
Tower were all rotaries!). Dunno about TMS, but I think it had SSL so
was probably wrong way round.

VT were a law unto themselves (antilog???), then there were those
twin-track Studers with faders on, and RD4/4s (in radio), IIRC they
opened upwards.

I don't think we're discussing the same thing. I was comparing desks in
radio studios and desks in the sound control room of television studios.


In that case: BBC-way-round throughout (unless post 1990 installation or
SSL who, IIRC, refused to do a 'BBC version' of the 500 series and
beyond).

As I said, I know of at least one Calrec desk (in service last year)
that still maintained the tradition.

'Push-to-open' is a pain in a live situation, as it's ergonomically very
limiting. The other way, you can pre-fade and fade up to normal without
looking at the fader at all (even easier with quadrants), and mechanical
control (of fingers and muscles) gets better as you approach normal
stop. You can't easily knock faders off the back stop by accident, and
parallax is reduced (assuming you have a scribble strip or ident display
above the fader below the channel strip).

I honestly can't see any validity to commercial-way-round faders, even
in live music. It's often claimed that you want a 'graphic' display of
levels, but even there, if you're using the desk's gain properly, the
faders should be somewhere near normal stop anyway. Once you get below
50% travel on a 'log-B' carbon-track fader, resolution becomes very
coarse and subtlety is very hard to achieve.

Give me BBC-way-round quadrants any day, even the studded variety!

Cheers,

S.
--
SimonM
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SpamTrapSeeSig wrote:
....
And (as of last year) there was at least one desk in live nightly TV use
in the BBC that has faders the sensible way round (i.e. shut away from
you).

It was a joy to behold, but the switchover was a classic example of
market share triumphing over common sense.
....

Without wishing to start a (hopefully not inevitable) religious war, why
is shut away from you the sensible way round?

I never had any problems with desks where you push to open the channel,
in my very limited broadcasting experience. In a Cessna 172, I push the
throttle knob if I want more power. And so on...

I'm hoping for a reply on the lines of
"Yes, but Insert simple killer argument here"

I'm trying to remember which way the faders went on the mixers when I
worked for Rupert Neve back in 1978. I think they were all up to open?

--
Phil
Liverpool, UK