Blu-Ray player

On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:42:43 +0000, Bob Goddard
wrote:

Peter Duncanson wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 21:28:29 +0000, Andy Champ
wrote:

Malcolm Knight wrote:

That is disc dependent and down to lazy authoring. Some discs will,
after removal and power down, ask you if you want to start again or
Resume when reinserted. One of my music concert discs allows me to
choose my favourite tracks, resequence them and have that choice offered
to me whenever that disc is reinserted. Almost anything is possible.

Many BD discs Resume in exactly the same mannner as DVDs, rather too
many don't but that is the choice of the film distributor.

Fascinating.

Where exactly on the disc does it put the information on where you are
up to? (clue: The disc is read only).

Good question.

I have no idea of the formats and protocols but it would in principle be
possible for a disc to have a "Never resume" marker that the player
would obey.

Nearly...

http://www.sony.com.au/subtype/usefulinfo/asset/306437, number 6 I think.


Thanks. I read that and followed links to information about BD-J. Those
are Blu-Ray discs with Java (computer) programs on them. When you run
one of those Java program code is read from the disc into the player
which then runs the program. The program can then give a wide range of
facilities in addition to the normal disc menus. This could include
computer games. Stopping a Java program, powering down and then resuming
it later might be technically feasible, but like putting a Windows PC
into hibernation it would require storage space to retain the current
state of the program. (On a PC this is a hard disc drive.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J

--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)

"killjoy" wrote in message
. ..
On 04/01/2010 15:03, R. Mark Clayton wrote:

Sony also make you sit through miles of pre-crap no matter how fast it
loads.

To put it impolitely Sony have got their heads up their own a***s with
DRM
and their BD players are probably best given a miss as a result.

You're probably right about Sony players and "pre-crap". I put the disc in
well before I want to watch it - with TV and sound system turned off.
That's when I come back ten minutes later and it's still waiting for me to
choose a language. :-)

I'm another one who's going to stay away from blu-ray for a while longer.

I have enough trouble with DVDs that come with copyright messages that,
despite paying for the disk, you have to keep seeing over and over again
(try explaining the reason to a screaming 3-year-old), and loads of trailers
that you have to individually fast forward through before you get to the
main movie.

I've just rediscovered how wonderful VHS was: you take out a tape halfway
through, watch something else, and then put the original tape in (even a
year later, on a different machine, and possibly in a different country) and
it carries on where it left off! (Although this can sometimes backfire..)

I was just visiting someone and they had somewhere a 17" tabletop CRT colour
TV, with light-touch channel select buttons that you just clicked to
*instantly* switch to another channel! I was changing channels just for the
novelty.

Why is technology intent on making life impossible instead of better?

--
Bartc

In article ,
bartc wrote:

[Snip]

Why is technology intent on making life impossible instead of better?

You're just a luddite. It must be better - it's "digital". ;-)

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

"Peter Duncanson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:42:43 +0000, Bob Goddard
wrote:


http://www.sony.com.au/subtype/usefulinfo/asset/306437, number 6 I think.


Thanks. I read that and followed links to information about BD-J. Those
are Blu-Ray discs with Java (computer) programs on them. When you run
one of those Java program code is read from the disc into the player
which then runs the program. The program can then give a wide range of
facilities in addition to the normal disc menus. This could include
computer games. Stopping a Java program, powering down and then resuming
it later might be technically feasible, but like putting a Windows PC
into hibernation it would require storage space to retain the current
state of the program. (On a PC this is a hard disc drive.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J

I don't see that this makes much difference. Instead of the player's
firmware recording the title and current position of a disk, it will be up
to the Java program doing the same.

(Assuming it has access to memory in the player, and therefore knows it was
in the middle of playing a title rather than anything complicated.)

And using Java (which anyway should be transparent to the user) should
surely enhance the product not make it more of a pain to use.

--
Bartc

On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:14:43 GMT, "bartc" wrote:


"Peter Duncanson" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:42:43 +0000, Bob Goddard
wrote:


http://www.sony.com.au/subtype/usefulinfo/asset/306437, number 6 I think.


Thanks. I read that and followed links to information about BD-J. Those
are Blu-Ray discs with Java (computer) programs on them. When you run
one of those Java program code is read from the disc into the player
which then runs the program. The program can then give a wide range of
facilities in addition to the normal disc menus. This could include
computer games. Stopping a Java program, powering down and then resuming
it later might be technically feasible, but like putting a Windows PC
into hibernation it would require storage space to retain the current
state of the program. (On a PC this is a hard disc drive.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J

I don't see that this makes much difference. Instead of the player's
firmware recording the title and current position of a disk, it will be up
to the Java program doing the same.

What I had in mind was that the Java program would need to have all its
in-memory data stored somewhere safe during the powered down time. There
could be quite a lot of it. It is not impossible in principle (and at a
price). The question is whether players are built with enough
non-volatile memory to support this.

(Assuming it has access to memory in the player, and therefore knows it was
in the middle of playing a title rather than anything complicated.)

And using Java (which anyway should be transparent to the user) should
surely enhance the product not make it more of a pain to use.

smile

--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)

In article , bartc
wrote:

"Peter Duncanson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:42:43 +0000, Bob Goddard
wrote:


http://www.sony.com.au/subtype/usefulinfo/asset/306437, number 6 I
think.


Thanks. I read that and followed links to information about BD-J.
Those are Blu-Ray discs with Java (computer) programs on them. When
you run one of those Java program code is read from the disc into the
player which then runs the program. The program can then give a wide
range of facilities in addition to the normal disc menus. This could
include computer games. Stopping a Java program, powering down and
then resuming it later might be technically feasible, but like putting
a Windows PC into hibernation it would require storage space to retain
the current state of the program. (On a PC this is a hard disc drive.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J

I don't see that this makes much difference. Instead of the player's
firmware recording the title and current position of a disk, it will be
up to the Java program doing the same.

I agree. Players are essentially finite state machines with their own
memory. (If nothing else, they need memory space to do all the data
transforms, etc.) And they usually operate in a stiuation where 'off' means
'standby' and/or can have non-volatile memory.

So there is no technical reason why they can't hold memory states for each
disc and then resume when they detect the same disc has been
reloaded/restarted. Thus giving prompt restart from the situation when that
disc was stopped or ejected.

So I suspect this is the usual mix of two things

A) The makers of the discs want to control what you as the mere paying
customer can and cannot do with what you *paid for*.

B) The makers of the players are either prevented by disc makers, or cannae
be bothered.

(Assuming it has access to memory in the player, and therefore knows it
was in the middle of playing a title rather than anything complicated.)

And using Java (which anyway should be transparent to the user) should
surely enhance the product not make it more of a pain to use.

Indeed, to both.

IIRC some DVD players/recorders had the ability to 'remember' a large
number of discs. This can be a bit hit and miss. But one player I have
often remembers a disc I played some months before and restarts from where
I stopped. Given the price of memory these days there is no real cost for
this, so we get back to (A) and/or (B) above.

I'm afraid this is the 'DRM age' where large companies presume they have
the right to dictate everything you can or cannot do.

To me the weird thing is the way the same companies then whine and moan
about behaviours like recording from TV or downloading from the web.
Without even thinking that maybe *they* are pushing people towards doing
this to bypass the control freakery they try to impose in terms of absurd
restrictions like having to sit though nag screens, not be able to resume
play, etc, etc.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:48:44 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article , bartc
wrote:

"Peter Duncanson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:42:43 +0000, Bob Goddard
wrote:


http://www.sony.com.au/subtype/usefulinfo/asset/306437, number 6 I
think.


Thanks. I read that and followed links to information about BD-J.
Those are Blu-Ray discs with Java (computer) programs on them. When
you run one of those Java program code is read from the disc into the
player which then runs the program. The program can then give a wide
range of facilities in addition to the normal disc menus. This could
include computer games. Stopping a Java program, powering down and
then resuming it later might be technically feasible, but like putting
a Windows PC into hibernation it would require storage space to retain
the current state of the program. (On a PC this is a hard disc drive.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J

I don't see that this makes much difference. Instead of the player's
firmware recording the title and current position of a disk, it will be
up to the Java program doing the same.

I agree. Players are essentially finite state machines with their own
memory. (If nothing else, they need memory space to do all the data
transforms, etc.) And they usually operate in a stiuation where 'off' means
'standby' and/or can have non-volatile memory.

So there is no technical reason why they can't hold memory states for each
disc and then resume when they detect the same disc has been
reloaded/restarted. Thus giving prompt restart from the situation when that
disc was stopped or ejected.

So I suspect this is the usual mix of two things

A) The makers of the discs want to control what you as the mere paying
customer can and cannot do with what you *paid for*.

B) The makers of the players are either prevented by disc makers, or cannae
be bothered.

(Assuming it has access to memory in the player, and therefore knows it
was in the middle of playing a title rather than anything complicated.)

And using Java (which anyway should be transparent to the user) should
surely enhance the product not make it more of a pain to use.

Indeed, to both.

IIRC some DVD players/recorders had the ability to 'remember' a large
number of discs. This can be a bit hit and miss. But one player I have
often remembers a disc I played some months before and restarts from where
I stopped. Given the price of memory these days there is no real cost for
this, so we get back to (A) and/or (B) above.

I'm afraid this is the 'DRM age' where large companies presume they have
the right to dictate everything you can or cannot do.

To me the weird thing is the way the same companies then whine and moan
about behaviours like recording from TV or downloading from the web.
Without even thinking that maybe *they* are pushing people towards doing
this to bypass the control freakery they try to impose in terms of absurd
restrictions like having to sit though nag screens, not be able to resume
play, etc, etc.

Seconded.

--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)

Jim Lesurf wrote:

In article , bartc
wrote:

"Peter Duncanson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:42:43 +0000, Bob Goddard
wrote:


http://www.sony.com.au/subtype/usefulinfo/asset/306437, number 6 I
think.


[...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J

I don't see that this makes much difference. Instead of the player's
firmware recording the title and current position of a disk, it will be
up to the Java program doing the same.

I agree. Players are essentially finite state machines with their own
memory. (If nothing else, they need memory space to do all the data
transforms, etc.) And they usually operate in a stiuation where 'off'
means 'standby' and/or can have non-volatile memory.

So there is no technical reason why they can't hold memory states for each
disc and then resume when they detect the same disc has been
reloaded/restarted. Thus giving prompt restart from the situation when
that disc was stopped or ejected.
[...]

Uhhh, if the BluRay player uses 16MB of memory (not got a clue on the actual
amount, could be 1GB for all I know) in which to run the VM and you need to
save its state, then you may need to store all that 16MB (or 1GB) for each
disk.

Memory may be cheap, but flash is comparatively dear and is not wear
efficient, difficult to change unless you force the costs up.

Just how many disks would you want them to store? 1? 2? 10? 100? 1000?


B

--
http://www.mailtrap.org.uk/

On 05/01/2010 15:18, Peter Duncanson wrote:
On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 14:48:44 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In a.com, bartc
wrote:

"Peter wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 22:42:43 +0000, Bob Goddard
wrote:


http://www.sony.com.au/subtype/usefulinfo/asset/306437, number 6 I
think.


Thanks. I read that and followed links to information about BD-J.
Those are Blu-Ray discs with Java (computer) programs on them. When
you run one of those Java program code is read from the disc into the
player which then runs the program. The program can then give a wide
range of facilities in addition to the normal disc menus. This could
include computer games. Stopping a Java program, powering down and
then resuming it later might be technically feasible, but like putting
a Windows PC into hibernation it would require storage space to retain
the current state of the program. (On a PC this is a hard disc drive.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J

I don't see that this makes much difference. Instead of the player's
firmware recording the title and current position of a disk, it will be
up to the Java program doing the same.

I agree. Players are essentially finite state machines with their own
memory. (If nothing else, they need memory space to do all the data
transforms, etc.) And they usually operate in a stiuation where 'off' means
'standby' and/or can have non-volatile memory.

So there is no technical reason why they can't hold memory states for each
disc and then resume when they detect the same disc has been
reloaded/restarted. Thus giving prompt restart from the situation when that
disc was stopped or ejected.

So I suspect this is the usual mix of two things

A) The makers of the discs want to control what you as the mere paying
customer can and cannot do with what you *paid for*.

B) The makers of the players are either prevented by disc makers, or cannae
be bothered.

(Assuming it has access to memory in the player, and therefore knows it
was in the middle of playing a title rather than anything complicated.)

And using Java (which anyway should be transparent to the user) should
surely enhance the product not make it more of a pain to use.

Indeed, to both.

IIRC some DVD players/recorders had the ability to 'remember' a large
number of discs. This can be a bit hit and miss. But one player I have
often remembers a disc I played some months before and restarts from where
I stopped. Given the price of memory these days there is no real cost for
this, so we get back to (A) and/or (B) above.

I'm afraid this is the 'DRM age' where large companies presume they have
the right to dictate everything you can or cannot do.

To me the weird thing is the way the same companies then whine and moan
about behaviours like recording from TV or downloading from the web.
Without even thinking that maybe *they* are pushing people towards doing
this to bypass the control freakery they try to impose in terms of absurd
restrictions like having to sit though nag screens, not be able to resume
play, etc, etc.

Seconded.


Thirded!

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Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
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Peter Duncanson wrote:
On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 21:28:29 +0000, Andy Champ
wrote:

Malcolm Knight wrote:
That is disc dependent and down to lazy authoring. Some discs will,
after removal and power down, ask you if you want to start again or
Resume when reinserted. One of my music concert discs allows me to
choose my favourite tracks, resequence them and have that choice offered
to me whenever that disc is reinserted. Almost anything is possible.

Many BD discs Resume in exactly the same mannner as DVDs, rather too
many don't but that is the choice of the film distributor.
Fascinating.

Where exactly on the disc does it put the information on where you are
up to? (clue: The disc is read only).

Presumably the information is stored in the player. Two items of data
would do the trick: Disc Identifier and the associated Position Pointer.


Looks like this has been covered now. BD-J discs would need to
"hibernate" (to use the Windoze term) the entire state of the JVM.

I rather think it's more than 2 pieces of information BTW - I don't know
about BD, but on DVD you'd need to store all 16 GPRMs and 24 SPRMs
indexed to the disc ID. However you'd still get 5 such datasets in 1kB
so it wouldn't be too hard.

Andy