TOT halogen efficiency

On 4 July, 13:01, John Stumbles wrote:
On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 04:14:45 -0700, Adam Aglionby wrote:
Again , your suggestions for currently availabke suitable replacement
lighting?

Your source for beleiving MR16 will be "outlawed" within 5 years?

Really there is some crap talked about lighting by the half informed.

I guess you've come over from the uk.tech.digital-tv group? Andrew Gabriel
has been posting on uk.d-i-y for many years and has consistently shown
himself to be pretty clued up on lighting. Which is not to say that a
request for references is unreasonable, but the "half informed" slur is
... well, half informed :-)

--
John Stumbles

I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure

Nope, been here a while, and sci.engr.lighting for a lot longer. Mebbe
its posting from google groups means am invsible.

Great respect for Andrew and his generally helpful responses known
also as a fellow poster to sci.engr.lighting for many years, sorry if
appeared to single him out for talking half informed crap on this
particular subject ,its really not personal but strongly disagree with
him on this point and interested as to where this is all originating.

Have come across this same nonsense recently both in the virtual and
real world, halogen lamps are inefficient crap thats going to be
illegal within 5 years, MR16 lamps wont be available anywhere but back
street `bulb dealers`.

Just to tidy up slightly, MR16 is a shape of lamp, its a 2" diameter
reflector lamp.

It can have all sorts of bases GU10 and GX5.3 for two and all sorts of
wattages and voltages for all sorts of applications, for reasons of
clarity will call the 230/240V MR16 a GU10 and 12V MR16 an LV lamp.

LV MR16 was introduced as display lamp for commercial premises
replacing PAR38`s and crown silvered lamps around the mid 1980`s.

GU10 was introduced for reasons probably more to do with lamp makers
margins than it being a good idea, 110V probably works marginally
better 230V has always been heavily compromised, lifetime , colour
temperature and beam control are crap.

For some reason contractors and developers think GU10 is easier and
cheaper to install than LV MR16 , perhaps ones who didn`t understand
Low Voltage first time around, yes have seen qualified electricians
hook up LV lamps to mains.

LV halogen has excellent colour rendering, excellent beam control and
very good efficiency for incandescent.

Fluoro retofit lamps for GU10 are universally RUBBISH, they are crap,
they do not work, they are a waste of money, hope made that clear
enough they are green wash of the very worst kind.
,
Half informed, the proponents of MR16 is soon to be illegal, always
seem to fail to suggest any realistic AVAILABLE alternative.

Mr Gabriel specifically because his advice is usually good, is liaible
to have his view that MR16s are about to become no longer available
given more weight.

But like others of this MR16s are a dissappearing breed persuasion ,
seems very light on alternatives.

Have suggested a couple in a previous topic , do realise there is a
difference between what is available to commercial users and what is
availble in small quantities to domestic and D.I.Y. users.

Scaremongering about lamps being outlawed without any evidence or
suggesting valid alternatives is not helpful to the debate.

Adam

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
om...
Well, I have heard that the higher voltage halogens fail faster than the
low voltage ones, presumably due to their less substantial filaments.
I'm not a fan of halogen, as even when I could see they all seemed green
to me.. This of course may just mean I've always been colour blind even
when i could see!

Must have been a relief to get rid of the colour blindness when you err . .
went blind . .

Bill

On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:16:29 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

Well, I have heard that the higher voltage halogens fail faster than the low
voltage ones, presumably due to their less substantial filaments.
I'm not a fan of halogen, as even when I could see they all seemed green to
me.. This of course may just mean I've always been colour blind even when i
could see!

About a year ago I replaced nine 40w mains voltage GLS tungsten lamps
with 28w halogens - mainly because I considered the light fittings
were getting too hot. Subjectively the brightness is no less, and the
colour is if anything slightly whiter. None of them has failed yet.

On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 06:49:09 -0700, Adam Aglionby wrote:


---8--- snip ---8---

Great respect for Andrew and his generally helpful responses known
also as a fellow poster to sci.engr.lighting for many years, sorry if
appeared to single him out for talking half informed crap on this
particular subject ,its really not personal but strongly disagree with
him on this point and interested as to where this is all originating.

Have come across this same nonsense recently both in the virtual and
real world, halogen lamps are inefficient crap thats going to be
illegal within 5 years, MR16 lamps wont be available anywhere but back
street `bulb dealers`.

---8--- snip ---8---


Fairy nuff: looks like a case of two pretty well informed folks who happen
to disagree on certain issues. Sorry Adam, I hadn't noticed your name on
this group until now (which probably says more about my observation than
your contributions).

Fluoro retofit lamps for GU10 are universally RUBBISH, they are crap,
they do not work, they are a waste of money, hope made that clear
enough they are green wash of the very worst kind.

In the situation where one already has a GU10 fitting, then CFLs are - in
my personal opinion - less awful than halogens. I have one fitting - a
4-way bar in the kitchen - where I've tried various types of CFL and
cold-cathodes as well as halogens and find the warm white CFLs give a more
pleasant light with a better spread than the halos. However the start-up
time is abysmal and several of the samples have failed after just a few
months, which at pushing £10 a pop is not nice. Hopefully the lifetime and
start-up delay will be improved on and the price reduced over time. Even
so the whole business of building the electronics into the lamp with the
tube - and throwing it all away when the latter fails - is even more
ludicrous where one may have half a dozen relatively low output lamps
illuminating a room than where one has just one largish one.

Half informed, the proponents of MR16 is soon to be illegal, always
seem to fail to suggest any realistic AVAILABLE alternative.

Maybe it's wishful thinking: that mains GU10s _should_ be illegal :-)

Leaving aside the possibility that GU10 CFLs might become less awful, what
about metal halide? ISTR reading (possibly in a post of Andrew's) that
this could be a contender?


--
John Stumbles

Bad artists borrow
Great artists steal

On Jul 4, 2:49*pm, Adam Aglionby wrote:
On 4 July, 13:01, John Stumbles wrote:
On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 04:14:45 -0700, Adam Aglionby wrote:

Again , your suggestions for currently availabke suitable replacement
lighting?

Your source for beleiving MR16 will be "outlawed" within 5 years?

Really there is some crap talked about lighting by the half informed.

I guess you've come over from the uk.tech.digital-tv group? Andrew Gabriel
has been posting on uk.d-i-y for many years and has consistently shown
himself to be pretty clued up on lighting. Which is not to say that a
request for references is unreasonable, but the "half informed" slur is
... well, half informed :-)


Half informed, the proponents of MR16 is soon to be illegal, always
seem to fail to suggest any realistic AVAILABLE alternative.

seems very light on alternatives.

I'm puzzled by your talk of alternatives, is there anyone here that
doesnt know what other types of lighting are available?


NT

On 4 July, 14:49, Adam Aglionby wrote:
Fluoro retofit lamps for GU10 are universally RUBBISH, they are crap,
they do not work, they are a waste of money, hope made that clear
enough they are green wash of the very worst kind.

Such hyperbole is not conducive to your other comments being taken
seriously. I have a number of 7W fluorescent GU10 replacements (two
in the porch and several in garden lighting units) and IMHO they're
absolutely fine for those applications. In fact, the wider beam angle
is actually beneficial.

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
To reply by email change 'news' to my forename.

In message
,
Richard Russell writes
On 4 July, 14:49, Adam Aglionby wrote:
Fluoro retofit lamps for GU10 are universally RUBBISH, they are crap,
they do not work, they are a waste of money, hope made that clear
enough they are green wash of the very worst kind.

Such hyperbole is not conducive to your other comments being taken
seriously. I have a number of 7W fluorescent GU10 replacements (two
in the porch and several in garden lighting units) and IMHO they're
absolutely fine for those applications. In fact, the wider beam angle
is actually beneficial.

Has anyone tried the 7W G9 type? This is supposedly equivalent to a 35W
filament bulb. I've presently got a light with a halogen 25W G9, and
it's a bit too dim. I'm not sure what wattage filament lamp this is
equivalent to.
http://www.alertelectrical.com/Lamps...ng-Light-Bulbs
/G9-GU9-Series-Low-Energy-Lamps/Megaman-7w-G9-Compact-Lamp-104221.asp

However, what I really want to use is the higher power 9W GU9.
http://www.alertelectrical.com/Lamps...ng-Light-Bulbs
/G9-GU9-Series-Low-Energy-Lamps/Megaman-9w-GU9-Compact-Lamp-104326.asp
This is supposedly equivalent to a 45W filament bulb.
I ordered one online a couple of months ago, but it still hasn't arrived
(apparently still on back order from the manufacturer). Has anyone used
one of these. Do they actually exist, or are they simply 'vapourware' at
present?
--
Ian

Adam Aglionby wrote:
SNIPPED
Strongly suggest you look for a different lighting technology for any
new installations. Downlighters are so bad for general lighting, and
you may well find the EU outlaws the bulbs for them over the next 5
years (certainly the mains ones, and 12V may follow later).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Again , your suggestions for currently availabke suitable replacement
lighting?

Your source for beleiving MR16 will be "outlawed" within 5 years?

I did not see Andy make reference to MR16 in particular. However the
general EU timetable is described at the end of this document:

http://ec.europa.eu/energy/efficiency/ecodesign/doc/committee/2008_12_08_technical_briefing_household_lamps.pdf

Really there is some crap talked about lighting by the half informed.

Alas you need to include the law makers in that category.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article cb4261d3-91f6-4141-88ae-
, Adam Aglionby wrote:
Fluoro retofit lamps for GU10 are universally RUBBISH, they are crap,
they do not work, they are a waste of money, hope made that clear
enough they are green wash of the very worst kind.

Apart from the slight nuisance that they're slightly bigger than the
filament ones so you have to choose from a limited range of light
fittings that can take them, I've found Fluoro GU10s to be absolutely
fine. They give just as much light with less electrical power, and a
much more pleasant soft light that isn't a horrible green colour, and I
can hot-swap them without burning my fingers.

Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

On 4 July, 20:58, John Stumbles wrote:
On Sat, 04 Jul 2009 06:49:09 -0700, Adam Aglionby wrote:

---8--- snip ---8---

Great respect for Andrew and his generally helpful responses known
also as a fellow poster to sci.engr.lighting for many years, sorry if
appeared to single him out for talking half informed crap on this
particular subject ,its really not personal but strongly disagree with
him on this point and interested as to where this is all originating.

Have come across this same nonsense recently both in the virtual and
real world, halogen lamps are inefficient crap thats going to be
illegal within 5 years, MR16 lamps wont be available anywhere but back
street `bulb dealers`.

---8--- snip ---8---

Fairy nuff: looks like a case of two pretty well informed folks who happen
to disagree on certain issues. Sorry Adam, I hadn't noticed your name on
this group until now (which probably says more about my observation than
your contributions).

Im not a regular contrbutor to uk.d-i-y, though a regular reader and
much appreciate the regular posters from whom I have learned a lot.


Fluoro retofit lamps for GU10 are universally RUBBISH, they are crap,
, hope made that clear
enough they are green wash of the very worst kind.

In the situation where one already has a GU10 fitting, then CFLs are - in
my personal opinion - less awful than halogens.

This is what I hate about GU10 fluro, its retrofitting a technology
that shouldn`t have been fitted in the first place, allow me to
rephrase
GU10 are universally RUBBISH, they are crap, they do not work, they
are a waste of money and the fluro retrofits are no better.

I have one fitting - a
4-way bar in the kitchen - where I've tried various types of CFL and
cold-cathodes as well as halogens and find the warm white CFLs give a more
pleasant light with a better spread than the halos. However the start-up
time is abysmal and several of the samples have failed after just a few
months, which at pushing £10 a pop is not nice. Hopefully the lifetime and
start-up delay will be improved on and the price reduced over time.

2" lamp is very tight to curl a tube into and fit the driver
electronics, embodied energy, waste and replacement cost dosn`t add
up to a green lamp thats for sure.

Even
so the whole business of building the electronics into the lamp with the
tube - and throwing it all away when the latter fails -

Something do not understand about current race for CFL is ignoring PL
base lamps, the electronics in the base and throwawy tube.

is even more
ludicrous where one may have half a dozen relatively low output lamps
illuminating a room than where one has just one largish one.

There is advantages to using multiple sources, avoiding shadows being
a top priority.


Half informed, the proponents of MR16 is soon to be illegal, always
seem to fail to suggest any realistic AVAILABLE alternative.

Maybe it's wishful thinking: that mains GU10s _should_ be illegal :-)

Very true :-)


Leaving aside the possibility that GU10 CFLs might become less awful,

Need to get away from GU10 and fluro in same sentence, fluro can be a
very good source but not crammed into a 2" spotlight fitting.
MR16 2" lamp format is great for spotlighting but aging not with a
240V filament crammed into it.

what
about metal halide? ISTR reading (possibly in a post of Andrew's) that
this could be a contender?

Hopefully it should be coming through , used to be only availble in
big lamps couple hundred watts up but with commercial use growing all
the time and miniature lamps for automotive use now big, cost and size
aren`t the problems they used to be , takes some innovative fitting
makers to make domestic acceptable designs.
Metal halide can make a great source, but hopefully not just as a GU10
retrofit.

Adam


--
John Stumbles

Bad artists borrow
Great artists steal