24 fps, blue ray and my telly.

"Chas Gill" wrote in message
...
From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that
the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable
TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it
is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than
true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and
play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me
or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any
contribution gratefully accepted!).

Chas
If your TV won't accept 24p then the player will output Blu-ray as 1080i/p @
60Hz, no 4% speed-up conversion to PAL 25/50 as some people are incorrectly
assuming.

If I disable 24p output on my Panasonic BD50 the BD50 then outputs 1080p @
60Hz and you can see 2:3 pulldown artifacts and panning judder. Not wholy
unacceptable but not as nice as 24p.

Ian_m wrote:

If your TV won't accept 24p then the player will output Blu-ray as
1080i/p @ 60Hz, no 4% speed-up conversion to PAL 25/50 as some people
are incorrectly assuming.

I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that a BD/DVD player
will initiate 4% speed up from a 24p disc, when feeding a non 24p
display, only that they would repeat a frame's worth of material once
per second. Speed up is only used in broadcasting, and mastering
R2-625/50 DVDs.

If I disable 24p output on my Panasonic BD50 the BD50 then outputs 1080p
@ 60Hz and you can see 2:3 pulldown artifacts and panning judder. Not
wholy unacceptable but not as nice as 24p.

2:3 pulldown for me is the spawn of the Devil ! YMMV.

Mark Carver wrote:

I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that a BD/DVD player
will initiate 4% speed up from a 24p disc, when feeding a non 24p
display, only that they would repeat a frame's worth of material once
per second. Speed up is only used in broadcasting, and mastering
R2-625/50 DVDs.

Repeating a frame looks surprisingly nasty on slow pans making the
picture jolt noticeably once per second.

If I disable 24p output on my Panasonic BD50 the BD50 then outputs 1080p
@ 60Hz and you can see 2:3 pulldown artifacts and panning judder. Not
wholy unacceptable but not as nice as 24p.

2:3 pulldown for me is the spawn of the Devil ! YMMV.

2:3 pulldown does create artifacts, but I find it an order of magnitude
more acceptable than adding one frame per second.

--
Dave Farrance

Dave Farrance wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:

2:3 pulldown for me is the spawn of the Devil ! YMMV.

2:3 pulldown does create artifacts, but I find it an order of magnitude
more acceptable than adding one frame per second.

What does look awful is 2:3 pulldown obviously applied in 525/60, and then
converted to 625/50 !



--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:51:25 +0100, Mike Henry
wrote:

In , Dave Farrance
wrote:

True 50 fps seems to me to be much more desirable than true 24 fps for a
television over here.

Well yes, but only in the statistical sense that more people (those that
watch UK television programmes) will need native 50fps than people who
need native 24fps (those that watch Blu-Ray movies) - but both features
are highly desirable. Eventually everyone will need both. It shouldn't be
an either or.

I'd hope that most TVs sold over here *are*
capable of true 50 fps, but I've not researched this so it might be a
more widespread problem than just these Panasonic Vieras.

Hope not - I thought that the days of manufacturers palming off old
60fps-only panels on the public were gone. I didn't realise that this
disgraceful practice was still going on :-(

I find the feature works quite well.


Marky P.

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:30:17 +0100, Stan The Man
wrote:

On 2008-08-20 20:15:14 +0100, Marky P said:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:42:22 +0100, Stan The Man
wrote:

On 2008-08-20 12:58:46 +0100, "Brian W"
said:


"Stan The Man" wrote in message
...
On 2008-08-20 09:22:14 +0100, Andy Burns
said:

On 20/08/2008 09:04, Chas Gill wrote:

From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see
that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps
capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only
because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be
the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose
to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something
that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I
know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!).

Every 24th frame will be displayed twice to make 50 fields per second,
so playback will have a glitch once a second rather than being smooth.

My new Viera has a 24fps option but I haven't figured out when to use
it yet. Should it be activated for all Blu Ray movies or only those
which display a 24fps flag? Presumably the Blu Ray set of a TV series,
such as Planet Earth, won't benefit from 24fps? TIA.


All BD movies play at 24fps (you'll notice that a BD film will run a
few minutes longer than the same film on PAL DVD, which is 25fps).

Thanks. Wondering now if I can just leave this option ticked
permanently: presumably the Viera will only use it when it detects
suitable material?

Stan

I have a Panny Viera, but I haven't noticed an option to switch 24fps
on or off. Mine seems automatic.

To be more precise, the feature is called "Intelligent Frame Creation"
(TH- 42PZ81B model) and it is configurable to on or off.

Stan

I find with Blu-Ray, the IFC feature does improve movement. This is
an additional feature to the 24fps feature.


Marky P.

On 2008-08-22 18:32:00 +0100, Marky P said:

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:30:17 +0100, Stan The Man
wrote:

On 2008-08-20 20:15:14 +0100, Marky P said:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:42:22 +0100, Stan The Man
wrote:

On 2008-08-20 12:58:46 +0100, "Brian W"
said:


"Stan The Man" wrote in message
...
On 2008-08-20 09:22:14 +0100, Andy Burns
said:

On 20/08/2008 09:04, Chas Gill wrote:

From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see
that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps
capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only
because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be
the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose
to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something
that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I
know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!).

Every 24th frame will be displayed twice to make 50 fields per second,
so playback will have a glitch once a second rather than being smooth.

My new Viera has a 24fps option but I haven't figured out when to use
it yet. Should it be activated for all Blu Ray movies or only those
which display a 24fps flag? Presumably the Blu Ray set of a TV series,
such as Planet Earth, won't benefit from 24fps? TIA.


All BD movies play at 24fps (you'll notice that a BD film will run a
few minutes longer than the same film on PAL DVD, which is 25fps).

Thanks. Wondering now if I can just leave this option ticked
permanently: presumably the Viera will only use it when it detects
suitable material?

Stan

I have a Panny Viera, but I haven't noticed an option to switch 24fps
on or off. Mine seems automatic.

To be more precise, the feature is called "Intelligent Frame Creation"
(TH- 42PZ81B model) and it is configurable to on or off.

Stan

I find with Blu-Ray, the IFC feature does improve movement. This is
an additional feature to the 24fps feature.

Yes, I have been confused but my further research confirms that the
'24p Real Cinema' feature is built in and not user configurable. The
manual states: "24p Real Cinema: The 24p source data of movies is
converted into a video signal with 6 frames/0.1 second. This produces
smoother movie playback."

IFC _is_ configurable and has similar sounding benefits. Again from the
manual: "Automatically compensates the picture frame rate to make the
image smooth (Off / On). It is effective when viewing 24p input signal
with this function set to “On�."

This suggests that IFC may only be effective when viewing Blu-Ray
movies, in which case I am still confused as it sounds like both
features do the same job.

A reviewer at Trusted Reviews, writing about IFC on the slightly
different TH-50PZ800B model, says: "Wrapping up what's basically a
pretty wondrous performance with our Sweeney Todd Blu-ray is the
exceptional lack of video noise of any sort, and the extremely clear
appearance of its moving objects, as the Intelligent Frame Creation
system does a terrific job of smoothing and sharpening away the usual
judder and blur. What's more, IFC does this while leaving behind only
minimal evidence of negative side effects like shimmering around the
edges of moving objects.

That said, I'd urge you not to leave the IFC feature active for
everything you watch. For while it works brilliantly with a 1080p/24fps
movie feed, if I left it running while watching a sporting event it
sometimes caused balls to ‘glitch' quite alarmingly as they hurtled
across the turf, seemingly creating three balls where there should only
be one."

[http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/re...-Plasma-TV/p3]

I

must say that the manual isn't very idiot-friendly and gives no further
guidance on where and when to turn IFC on.

FWIW, it seems that all Pannys support 24p according to an interesting
discussion at
http://www.avforums.com/forums/archi.../t-653527.html

Stan

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:12:55 +0100, "Ian_m"
wrote:


"Chas Gill" wrote in message
...
From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that
the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable
TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it
is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than
true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and
play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me
or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any
contribution gratefully accepted!).

Chas
If your TV won't accept 24p then the player will output Blu-ray as 1080i/p @
60Hz, no 4% speed-up conversion to PAL 25/50 as some people are incorrectly
assuming.

If I disable 24p output on my Panasonic BD50 the BD50 then outputs 1080p @
60Hz and you can see 2:3 pulldown artifacts and panning judder. Not wholy
unacceptable but not as nice as 24p.

I found that if the film is 'involving' enough, you don't notice the
judder so much :-)


Marky P.

"Mike Henry" wrote in message
...
In , "Chas Gill"
wrote:

Snipped for brevity

Oh, and by the way, my TV was VERY expensive
when I bought it not about 18 months ago (not so now, though :-( ). What
worries me is that my very expensive TV (which performs outstandingly with
1080i source material from my SKY box) isn't capable of a similar
outstanding performance from a Blu Ray source, because someone decided
that
Blu Ray had to deliver 24fps because that's what films do.

See above. It's not a new sudden decision. It's a shame you spent a huge
amount of money without taking time to do some research first :-(

Well, I try to research these things, I really do - but to be fair this
whole subject area is pretty complex for those of us average consumers who
aren't aware of everything that's going on in the industry. When I bought
this telly it was the top of the range flagship Sony latest all-singing,
all-dancing mutts nuts - and the Blu ray vs. HD DVD thing was still going
on. It simply never occurred to me (having watched films for donkey's years
on TV and being blissfully unaware that they were running a bit fast) that
someone had a solution looking for a problem and that the solution was going
to degrade my viewing experience unless I had the right sort of TV. That's
what it comes down to and that's what brasses me off, especially so when the
maker of my telly invented the Blu Ray system and must have known when they
marketed my telly that it was incompatible. Ultimately the complexity of
the purchasing decision in cases like this steers many of us to trust the
retailer and the manufacturer to do the right thing and be up front about
developments that are around the corner. How silly to think that they
might...................... However it's helped with one purchasing
decision - I shan't be buying a Blu Ray player until my current telly drops
dead - and hopefully that won't be for a very long time to come.

Chas

In message , Mike Henry
wrote

If you have all UK R2 titles however, you're stuck with them being at
25fps and the wrong speed and pitch forever no matter what player you use,
because the audio conversion was done at the DVD mastering stage.

And isn't it amazing that 99.99 percent of the people buying these DVDs
haven't noticed?

--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com