24 fps, blue ray and my telly.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:42:22 +0100, Stan The Man
wrote:

On 2008-08-20 12:58:46 +0100, "Brian W"
said:


"Stan The Man" wrote in message
...
On 2008-08-20 09:22:14 +0100, Andy Burns
said:

On 20/08/2008 09:04, Chas Gill wrote:

From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see
that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps
capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only
because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be
the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose
to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something
that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I
know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!).

Every 24th frame will be displayed twice to make 50 fields per second,
so playback will have a glitch once a second rather than being smooth.

My new Viera has a 24fps option but I haven't figured out when to use
it yet. Should it be activated for all Blu Ray movies or only those
which display a 24fps flag? Presumably the Blu Ray set of a TV series,
such as Planet Earth, won't benefit from 24fps? TIA.


All BD movies play at 24fps (you'll notice that a BD film will run a
few minutes longer than the same film on PAL DVD, which is 25fps).

Thanks. Wondering now if I can just leave this option ticked
permanently: presumably the Viera will only use it when it detects
suitable material?

Stan

I have a Panny Viera, but I haven't noticed an option to switch 24fps
on or off. Mine seems automatic.


Marky P.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:13:04 +0100, "The dog from that film you saw"
wrote:


"Chas Gill" wrote in message
...
From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that
the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable
TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it
is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than
true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and
play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me
or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any
contribution gratefully accepted!).

Chas






your eyes will tell you that.
if 24fps capable tvs didn''t exist, would you be happy with how your tv
looks?
if the answer is yes, just accept that there will always be a more expensive
tv than you own.

When I bought my Blu-Ray player I had a 42" plasma that didn't accept
24fps. The result was jerky movement, most noticeable when panning.
I believe some TV's are better at conversion than others. Probably
the same with different Blu-Ray players.


Marky P.

Marky P wrote:

When I bought my Blu-Ray player I had a 42" plasma that didn't accept
24fps. The result was jerky movement, most noticeable when panning.
I believe some TV's are better at conversion than others. Probably
the same with different Blu-Ray players.

No, it's the BluRay player that does the conversion from 24 fps to 25 fps, not
the TV. The player will output 24 fps, only if the TV/Monitor tells it to,
otherwise it converts to 25 fps. If you think about it, it has to be that way
round.

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

"The dog from that film you saw" wrote in
message ...

"Chas Gill" wrote in message
...
From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see
that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps
capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only
because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the
"less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to
purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that
will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know -
but any contribution gratefully accepted!).

Chas






your eyes will tell you that.
if 24fps capable tvs didn''t exist, would you be happy with how your tv
looks?
if the answer is yes, just accept that there will always be a more
expensive tv than you own.



--
Gareth.

Not really the point. Until Blu Ray all source material was 25 fps so my
eyes didn't have a problem. Oh, and by the way, my TV was VERY expensive
when I bought it not about 18 months ago (not so now, though :-( ). What
worries me is that my very expensive TV (which performs outstandingly with
1080i source material from my SKY box) isn't capable of a similar
outstanding performance from a Blu Ray source, because someone decided that
Blu Ray had to deliver 24fps because that's what films do. I didn't buy a
friggin' projector, I bought a telly. What exactly did the blu ray designer
have in mind when he was designing a TV source box ?????

On 2008-08-20 20:15:14 +0100, Marky P said:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:42:22 +0100, Stan The Man
wrote:

On 2008-08-20 12:58:46 +0100, "Brian W"
said:


"Stan The Man" wrote in message
...
On 2008-08-20 09:22:14 +0100, Andy Burns
said:

On 20/08/2008 09:04, Chas Gill wrote:

From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see
that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps
capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only
because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be
the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose
to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something
that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I
know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!).

Every 24th frame will be displayed twice to make 50 fields per second,
so playback will have a glitch once a second rather than being smooth.

My new Viera has a 24fps option but I haven't figured out when to use
it yet. Should it be activated for all Blu Ray movies or only those
which display a 24fps flag? Presumably the Blu Ray set of a TV series,
such as Planet Earth, won't benefit from 24fps? TIA.


All BD movies play at 24fps (you'll notice that a BD film will run a
few minutes longer than the same film on PAL DVD, which is 25fps).

Thanks. Wondering now if I can just leave this option ticked
permanently: presumably the Viera will only use it when it detects
suitable material?

Stan

I have a Panny Viera, but I haven't noticed an option to switch 24fps
on or off. Mine seems automatic.

To be more precise, the feature is called "Intelligent Frame Creation"
(TH- 42PZ81B model) and it is configurable to on or off.

Stan

Chas Gill wrote:

Not really the point. Until Blu Ray all source material was 25 fps so
my eyes didn't have a problem. Oh, and by the way, my TV was VERY
expensive when I bought it not about 18 months ago (not so now, though
:-( ). What worries me is that my very expensive TV (which performs
outstandingly with 1080i source material from my SKY box) isn't capable
of a similar outstanding performance from a Blu Ray source, because
someone decided that Blu Ray had to deliver 24fps because that's what
films do. I didn't buy a friggin' projector, I bought a telly. What
exactly did the blu ray designer have in mind when he was designing a TV
source box ?????

24 fps working, 1080-24p is not really a 'BluRay' mode per se, it's one
of about 24 different valid and mandated HD standards.

The decision to use 24p to master movies on BluRay was taken to avoid
the 4% speed-up that's been used up until now on all 25fps TV systems,
mainly of course 625/50 SD. Some high end broadcast electronic cameras
and production kit also support the format.

It's all about standards again, and the same arguments apply as the DTT
split NIT saga. If a TV is marked 'HD Ready' it should support 24p working.
Sadly not all do, even from the 'Blue Chip' manufacturers.

Stan The Man wrote:

To be more precise, the feature is called "Intelligent Frame Creation"
(TH- 42PZ81B model) and it is configurable to on or off.

In the US, the Intelligent Frame Creation (IFC) is used to insert extra
frames to smooth out film judder and is therefore probably a desirable
feature over there. Unfortunately, over here they've also decided to use
IFC to convert the UK's 50 fps sources to the LCD's 60 fps:

http://panasonic.net/pavc/viera/features/europe.html

However cleverly it's done, it has to cause some blurring or artifacts
compared to an LCD that can be switched to run natively at 50 fps or a
multiple of that. I've found a number of comments on the web saying that
IFC does seem to make motion smoother, but in a unnatural way, and they
recommend that IFC is left switched off.

True 50 fps seems to me to be much more desirable than true 24 fps for a
television over here. I'd hope that most TVs sold over here *are*
capable of true 50 fps, but I've not researched this so it might be a
more widespread problem than just these Panasonic Vieras.

--
Dave Farrance

Mark Carver wrote:
It's all about standards again, and the same arguments apply as the DTT
split NIT saga. If a TV is marked 'HD Ready' it should support 24p working.
Sadly not all do, even from the 'Blue Chip' manufacturers.

Not so; the spec for the "HD Ready" logo says nothing about 24 fps at
all. "HD Ready" means only four things;

1) The minimum native resolution of the display or display engine is 720
physical lines in wide aspect ratio.

2) The display device accepts HD input via; a) analogue YPbPr and b) DVI
or HDMI

3) HD capable inputs accept the following HD video formats; a) 1280x720
@ 50Hz and 60Hz progressive ("720p") and b) 1920x1080 @ 50Hz and 60Hz
interlaced ("1080i")

4) The HDMI or DVI input supports content protection (HDCP).

That's it. If a TV or monitor can meet those standards then it's "HD
Ready". Nothing else is required to be met.

See http://www.eicta.org/index.php?id=32&id_article=50 and the "HD Ready
Logo - License Agreement" PDF linked from there which contains the
requirements and the testing procedure.

--
Angus G Rae Science & Engineering Support Team
Computing Services
University of Edinburgh
The above opinions are mine, and Edinburgh University can't have them

Angus Rae wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:
It's all about standards again, and the same arguments apply as the
DTT split NIT saga. If a TV is marked 'HD Ready' it should support 24p
working.
Sadly not all do, even from the 'Blue Chip' manufacturers.

Not so; the spec for the "HD Ready" logo says nothing about 24 fps at
all. "HD Ready" means only four things;

1) The minimum native resolution of the display or display engine is 720
physical lines in wide aspect ratio.

2) The display device accepts HD input via; a) analogue YPbPr and b) DVI
or HDMI

3) HD capable inputs accept the following HD video formats; a) 1280x720
@ 50Hz and 60Hz progressive ("720p") and b) 1920x1080 @ 50Hz and 60Hz
interlaced ("1080i")

4) The HDMI or DVI input supports content protection (HDCP).

That's it. If a TV or monitor can meet those standards then it's "HD
Ready". Nothing else is required to be met.

See http://www.eicta.org/index.php?id=32&id_article=50 and the "HD Ready
Logo - License Agreement" PDF linked from there which contains the
requirements and the testing procedure.

Just goes to show that the 'HD Ready' logo is not really much use then !

"Chas Gill" wrote in message
...



Not really the point. Until Blu Ray all source material was 25 fps so my
eyes didn't have a problem. Oh, and by the way, my TV was VERY expensive
when I bought it not about 18 months ago (not so now, though :-( ). What
worries me is that my very expensive TV (which performs outstandingly with
1080i source material from my SKY box) isn't capable of a similar
outstanding performance from a Blu Ray source, because someone decided
that Blu Ray had to deliver 24fps because that's what films do. I didn't
buy a friggin' projector, I bought a telly. What exactly did the blu ray
designer have in mind when he was designing a TV source box ?????




blu ray players will happily output a signal that works fine with your tv.
you don't HAVE to use 24fps mode.


--
Gareth.

that fly...... is your magic wand....