SKY+

On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 18:15:59 +0100, "loz"
wrote:

Show me another PVR in the UK that charges for recording "services".
Answer, none.

TiVo.

So how does Sky justify it?
Well they don't. Actually, Sky themselves don't try to justify it which is
interesting. If your arguements were so solid - then why don't Sky use them?

Because they don't need to justify anything. It's a service available
at a price you can choose to pay or not. If you don't want to pay it,
you can choose not to record the programmes, or record them some other
way, perhaps with a commonly-available video or DVD recorder. Or even
another PVR like TiVo.

--

On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 18:09:27 +0100, "loz"
wrote:

But every DTT PVR in the UK is a combination of hardware and software.
Yet no DTT PVR manufacturer charges you extra to use the recording feature.

Only because they cannot find a way to do so. So for that reason, the
full cost of a DTT PVR must be recouped from the purchase price.
Whereas with Sky+, the platform operator can decide to give you the
box at a large discount, or for free.

But AFAIAC saying that isn't providing a valid justification for it. It's
just saying "that's the way it is - take it or leave it".

Which is the way it is with most things in life. Is there any
overarching reason why Sky+ is so critical to life and limb that it
should be deemed an exception?


--

"Zero Tolerance" wrote in message
...
But every DTT PVR in the UK is a combination of hardware and software.
Yet no DTT PVR manufacturer charges you extra to use the recording
feature.

Only because they cannot find a way to do so. So for that reason, the
full cost of a DTT PVR must be recouped from the purchase price.
Whereas with Sky+, the platform operator can decide to give you the
box at a large discount, or for free.

Thats why DTT PVRs are so much more expensive than Sky+ boxes then? Not...

Loz

"Zero Tolerance" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 17:48:34 +0100, "loz"
wrote:

So name one UK PVR besides Sky+ boxes that requires any fee for recording
in
the UK.

TiVo.

err, no long on sale in the UK....

Loz

"Zero Tolerance" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 18:15:59 +0100, "loz"
wrote:

Show me another PVR in the UK that charges for recording "services".
Answer, none.

TiVo.

What's a Tivo?
Oh, I remember, some obscelete technology from the last millenium.. :-)

So how does Sky justify it?
Well they don't. Actually, Sky themselves don't try to justify it which is
interesting. If your arguements were so solid - then why don't Sky use
them?

Because they don't need to justify anything. It's a service available
at a price you can choose to pay or not. If you don't want to pay it,
you can choose not to record the programmes, or record them some other
way, perhaps with a commonly-available video or DVD recorder. Or even
another PVR like TiVo.

You keep saying Tivo. Why? No one can buy one.

Loz

Joern Bredereck wrote:

That's as may be, but it has nothing to do with the Sky+ which, as we
know, has only two models which are priced differently according to
the size of the drive.

The main point of having one is to be able to record and this is what
it doesn't do unless you pay even more.

Right. So what? Being able to record is an service provided by Sky.

No, it isn't. It is a function of the box as purchased. There is
absolutely no measure of service involved.


What
makes you think Sky wouldn't have the right to charge for their
services?

Because it isn't a service.


You can choose whether you want to use that service or not. If you do,
you have to pay. If you don't you don't have to pay. Fair is fair.

Saying that it's a ripp off to charge for this service is like saying
that it's a ripp off having to pay for a train ticket - after all the
train is going from station to station anyway - with or without you
riding on it. So the costs are the same, right? So why are they charging
for a ride in the train?

The train ride is indeed a service: the passenger has not previously
been required to buy the train and track.

Would you be so happy to pay Philips every time you want to use your
VCR or washing machine?

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/8vef5
UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
BBC/ITV reception trouble? ; http://www.astra2d.com/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

Joern Bredereck wrote:

You are still comparing FTA to PayTV, right?

UK DTT supports Pay TV.
UK DTT PVRs enable recoding of Pay TV.
UK DTT PVRs don't change a monthly fee to record pay TV

So, what's the next twist in your arguement.

Your twist would be that you compare the content and service of Sky+
with the content that DTT vierwes have access to.

As long as this content is not equal any comparison is nonsense as DTT
isn't a valid alternative to Sky+.

This has nothing to do with why Sky might charge £10 for the recording
function.

You pay to receive the pay Sky channels. You (can) pay full list price
to buy the Sky+ box without any requirement to subscribe and use it to
view the FTA and FTV channels. Yet you cannot use the box to record
without paying another £10 fee every month, even if you don't actually
subscribe to Sky and only want to record FTA and FTV channels.

There is no element of service here. It is just a rip-off charge that
is possible because Sky have the monopoly of FTV sat recording
devices, and for that matter of devices that use the Sky EPG.

Some have argued that the payment is for the software development, or
the hard drive, or this or that. This is incorrect as has been proven
many times. The payment is for nothing at all and, as such, is a
rip-off.

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/8vef5
UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
BBC/ITV reception trouble? ; http://www.astra2d.com/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

Zero Tolerance wrote:

So name one UK PVR besides Sky+ boxes that requires any fee for recording in
the UK.

TiVo.

The Tivo requires no payment at all to record or play back.

Payment (optional) is for the EPG.

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/8vef5
UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
BBC/ITV reception trouble? ; http://www.astra2d.com/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

Joern Bredereck wrote:

But you still don't explain why there should have been an identical
fee when the Sky+ *couldn't* record two things at once, nor do you
explain why it isn't free to record just one thing.

that's simple: The service has been improved without an additional
charge. Would you be happier if the Sky increased the fee after
improving the service?

My word, now there's a backwards argument! There is no justification
for any fee at all.


The argument "this fee is valid because I think it's worth the money"
is totally fallacious.

No, it's how free market works: supply and demand. As long as there are
people willing to buy at a certain price, this price is "valid".

There can be no free market with a monopoly product. This is why these
are banned in all free market economies.


And, in spite of much prompting, you still haven't come up with a
single good reason as to why there should be such a fee for the Sky+
but not for any other type of recorder or indeed any other type of
device.

I think I see now where your missunderstanding is: You think of "Sky+"
as a piece of electronics. But that's dead wrong. Sky+ is an ongoing
service, provided continuesly. You can't "buy" a service like this by
purchasing a piece of electronics. The Digibox is nothing more than the
neccessary infrastructure you need in order to use the service.

That is the excuse for a payment for programme content. The Sky+ is
not an ongoing service, any more than your toaster or washing machine
is. And they don't require a monthly payment for use either.


Think of
it as your PC: Just because you bought a piece of hardware that is
capable of displaying web sites that doesn't mean that you bought the
internet access itself. You still have to pay a monthly fee for your
internet service.

That equates to programme content. You do NOT have to pay a monthly
fee to use your PC or the software in it.


Great so don't subscribe to Sky+ then if you do not need the additional
service being provided. I don't fly Business Class because I do not need to
sleep in a flat bed across the Atlantic, but I don't bitch about the cost of
a Business Class ticket either!

This is totally irrelevant. There isn't a choice when it comes to
Sky+.

Take it or leave it. That sounds like a choice to me.

Well woo-hoo.

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/8vef5
UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
BBC/ITV reception trouble? ; http://www.astra2d.com/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

Joern Bredereck wrote:

The recording function of the Sky Box is part of that plattform
and not some function you bought with the Box itself just like the
sending/receiving mail function in your mobile phone is part of your
mobile providers plattform. Your Sky Box needs the content of the Sky
plattform to have something to record.

Total nonsense. This is exactly what does not happen.

You have not the faintest idea how it works.

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/8vef5
UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
BBC/ITV reception trouble? ; http://www.astra2d.com/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)