BBC/ITV FreeSat - will this be any different from FreeSatFromSky?

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:58:29 +0100, Jomtien wrote:

Legally, other than to ensure that the data they rebroadcast meets the
necessary codes, Sky are not "responsible" for third party broadcasts
of any kind - that includes EPG data.

No broadcaster has any choice about how the EPG works, how it was
designed or how it is broadcast; ergo Sky are entirely responsible.

How it works and what it contains are two different things.

If a channel submits entirely fictitious EPG information to Sky, there
is no way for them to know. Sky's responsibility is to make the
information from that channel available to its viewers. If the channel
is so clueless that they can't even get their EPG data right, then
that is the channel's responsibility, not Sky's.

"Andrew" [email protected] wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:58:29 +0100, Jomtien wrote:

I shall explain again:
Sky designed the EPG. They decide the spec. They authorise channels to
appear in it, against payment. They dictate to broadcasters what must
go in to the EPG and how it should be arranged and transmitted. No-one
apart from Sky has any say whatsoever in any of this. So Sky are
entirely responsible for the EPG and everything in it.

But they rely on feeds from the other broadcasters to supply the data.
They do not generate the data themselves and certainly are not
responsible for last minute scheduling changes with from the likes of
the BBC.

According to Jomtien Sky have supernatural powers, for example if BBC2 are
playing something late they are able to go back in time and have them get it
right this time, similarily if BBC2 put the wrong time on an EPG entry they
are able to foresee that it will be incorrect, and change it.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

"Jomtien" wrote in message
...
Tumbleweed wrote:

Because Sky are responsible and should ensure that all data is
correct.

You seem to have great difficulty understanding this very simple
matter
Jomtien.
Sky are not 'responsible' for the EPG, other than to send it out.
Its the
responsibility of each and evry broadcaster to get their correct EPG
data
into the EPG, and to make sure that their programme playouts
correspond. Sky
dont have any way of changing either of those. They cant update BBCs
EPG,
and neither can they determine what time a programme starts or end
because
they dont control playout for BBC.

I shall explain again:
Sky designed the EPG. They decide the spec. They authorise channels
to
appear in it, against payment. They dictate to broadcasters what
must
go in to the EPG and how it should be arranged and transmitted.
No-one
apart from Sky has any say whatsoever in any of this. So Sky are
entirely responsible for the EPG and everything in it.

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/8vef5
UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
BBC reception questions? ; http://www.astra2d.com/
Fed up with on-screen logos? : http://logofreetv.org/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)


Sorry - but I don't agree. Jomtien's argument is rather similar to
saying the printer has ultimate responsibility for the content of a
newspaper.

In the case of a newspaper, the publisher (via the editor) decides the
content of the newspaper. The publisher tells the printer what to
print. The printer merely has a contract to process information on
behalf of the publisher. However, the printer is not responsible for
what actually goes into the newspaper (unless the publisher and
printer are the same people).

That is the guiding principle. The printer's contract is with the
publisher of the newspaper - NOT with the people who buy or read it.
Yes - I realise this is a generalisation and I also realise that a
printer could have problems, if he knowingly prints or distributes
defamatory or illegal content. Even so, the underlying issue is
governed by the law of contract.

In the case of the Sky Digital platform, Sky must receive thousands of
items of data every day from individual broadcasters. Sky's primary
contractual responsibility is to coordinate and incorporate that data
in the EPG. I rather doubt whether the contract between individual
broadcasters and Sky imposes any obligation on Sky to verify the data.
On the contrary, the contract is more likely to contain exclusions, to
protect Sky.

Yes - I know it is fashionable to blame Sky (and Mr Murdoch's
companies) for many everyday problems. However, it would be
unreasonable to blame Sky for the resulting inconvenience to viewers,
if the EPG accurately reflects information provided by the
broadcasters. Complaints about inaccurate EPG data should be
addressed in the first instance to the broadcaster.

If you want an instance of truly appalling EPG data, tune to Eurosport
and Eurosport 2. Eurosport EPG data is wrong, more often than it is
correct. Within the last few weeks, their EPG (and the programme
banner) stated on more than one occasion that Eurosport were
broadcasting Winter Olympics - when they were actually showing WTA
Tennis from Dubai / Memphis. Eurosport's failure to provide accurate
EPG data also means that Sky+ does not record the correct programme
(or recording ceases before the end of the coverage, whenever a
particular sports item overruns its allotted time slot).

I admit the BBC doesn't always get it right - but give praise, where
praise is due. EPG data from the BBC is usually pretty accurate (give
or take a few minutes). Furthermore, the BBC adjusts the EPG
dynamically, as programmes progress, to cater for over-running sports
events and similar problems. Last year's Wimbledon tennis was a case
in point, when one thrilling match over-ran by more than one hour.
Sky+ captured the entire event. That would have been entirely beyond
the capability of Eurosport.

Bob

Tumbleweed wrote:
"Andrew" [email protected] wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 08:58:29 +0100, Jomtien
wrote:

I shall explain again:
Sky designed the EPG. They decide the spec. They authorise channels
to appear in it, against payment. They dictate to broadcasters what
must go in to the EPG and how it should be arranged and
transmitted. No-one apart from Sky has any say whatsoever in any of
this. So Sky are entirely responsible for the EPG and everything in
it.

But they rely on feeds from the other broadcasters to supply the
data. They do not generate the data themselves and certainly are not
responsible for last minute scheduling changes with from the likes of
the BBC.

According to Jomtien Sky have supernatural powers, for example if
BBC2 are playing something late they are able to go back in time and
have them get it right this time, similarily if BBC2 put the wrong
time on an EPG entry they are able to foresee that it will be
incorrect, and change it.

So THATS where Mystic Meg went! :-)

"Bob Lucas" wrote in message
...

In the case of the Sky Digital platform, Sky must receive thousands of
items of data every day from individual broadcasters. Sky's primary
contractual responsibility is to coordinate and incorporate that data in
the EPG. I rather doubt whether the contract between individual
broadcasters and Sky imposes any obligation on Sky to verify the data. On
the contrary, the contract is more likely to contain exclusions, to
protect Sky.

I suspect that those broadcasters want it that way as well, they dont want
Sky controlling what they put in their EPG.

FWIW Sky are putting a system in place to monitor timekeeping so that they
can actually make representations to those tardy brodcasters, because they
do get the stick when, say BBC are late, however there is little Sky can do
except publicise it, or perhaps complain to Ofcom.


Yes - I know it is fashionable to blame Sky (and Mr Murdoch's companies)
for many everyday problems. However, it would be unreasonable to blame
Sky for the resulting inconvenience to viewers, if the EPG accurately
reflects information provided by the broadcasters. Complaints about
inaccurate EPG data should be addressed in the first instance to the
broadcaster.

If you want an instance of truly appalling EPG data, tune to Eurosport and
Eurosport 2. Eurosport EPG data is wrong, more often than it is correct.
Within the last few weeks, their EPG (and the programme banner) stated on
more than one occasion that Eurosport were broadcasting Winter Olympics -
when they were actually showing WTA Tennis from Dubai / Memphis.
Eurosport's failure to provide accurate EPG data also means that Sky+ does
not record the correct programme

We noticed similar last year there was a period of a few weeks when a
channel was broadcasting completely different spoirts programs to those
advertised.

(or recording ceases before the end of the coverage, whenever a particular
sports item overruns its allotted time slot).

I admit the BBC doesn't always get it right - but give praise, where
praise is due. EPG data from the BBC is usually pretty accurate (give or
take a few minutes).

The problem is, those few minutes at the start or end of a programme are
usually the ones that count and get people really annoyed! And its not as
if, sports aside, it should come as a surprise to them as to the duration
and playout time of their prgrammes. Its either sheer incompetence, or as
others have said, with their conspiracy hat on, its done in order to get
people to miss the start of a rival programme. There is certainly a long
tradition of this sort of thing happening, right back to the launch of ITV,
when the BBC killed off a key character on a radio soap, on ITV launch
night.

Furthermore, the BBC adjusts the EPG dynamically, as programmes progress,
to cater for over-running sports events and similar problems. Last year's
Wimbledon tennis was a case in point, when one thrilling match over-ran by
more than one hour. Sky+ captured the entire event. That would have been
entirely beyond the capability of Eurosport.

....and beyond the capability of Jomtien to understand that Sky, much as I'm
sure they would like to control the content and timing of rival channels,
dont.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Bob Lucas wrote:

Jomtien's argument is rather similar to
saying the printer has ultimate responsibility for the content of a
newspaper.

No, my argument is that Sky are the editor and, as such, are
responsible.

To continue your analogy the broadcasters are just contributors,
though in this instance they pay the editor to contribute. If the
editor doesn't like the content of what is contributed it is up to him
to do something about it. It is also up to him to ensure the accuracy
of what is printed.

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/8vef5
UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
BBC reception questions? ; http://www.astra2d.com/
Fed up with on-screen logos? : http://logofreetv.org/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

Andrew wrote:

But they rely on feeds from the other broadcasters to supply the data.
They do not generate the data themselves and certainly are not
responsible for last minute scheduling changes with from the likes of
the BBC.

It is up to Sky to ensure the accuracy of the data and the recording
functions in whatever way needed. Whilst it may not be possible for
anyone to ensure that last minute changes are reflected in the EPG
this will rarely result in an entire recording not taking place.

The discussion here is about who is responsible for these missed
recordings and I say that Sky are, regardless of where the error lies,
because Sky have the initial, final and only say in how the EPG and
the Sky+ works.

If anyone else had any say in either then it could be argued that the
responsibility lies elsewhere. However this is not the case.

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/8vef5
UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
BBC reception questions? ; http://www.astra2d.com/
Fed up with on-screen logos? : http://logofreetv.org/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

Zero Tolerance wrote:

No broadcaster has any choice about how the EPG works, how it was
designed or how it is broadcast; ergo Sky are entirely responsible.

How it works and what it contains are two different things.

If a channel submits entirely fictitious EPG information to Sky, there
is no way for them to know. Sky's responsibility is to make the
information from that channel available to its viewers. If the channel
is so clueless that they can't even get their EPG data right, then
that is the channel's responsibility, not Sky's.

This assumes that these missed recordings are due to fictitious data.
This seems most unlikely, especially as the data is clearly visible in
the EPG.

And if some broadcasters are indeed providing totally incorrect data
then I'm sure that Sky's EPG contract with them allows for Sky to
exert suitable pressure on them to stop doing so.

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/8vef5
UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
BBC reception questions? ; http://www.astra2d.com/
Fed up with on-screen logos? : http://logofreetv.org/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:04:16 +0100, Jomtien wrote:

The discussion here is about who is responsible for these missed
recordings and I say that Sky are, regardless of where the error lies,
because Sky have the initial, final and only say in how the EPG and
the Sky+ works.

You can say that if you like, it is a free country, it doesn't stop it
being ******** though.

If anyone else had any say in either then it could be argued that the
responsibility lies elsewhere. However this is not the case.

You mean all the third party suppliers of programming? Until Rupert
Murdoch takes over the BBC and all the other networks, Sky cannot be
held totally responsible for the EPG contents and scheduling.
--
Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:04:16 +0100, Jomtien wrote:

Andrew wrote:

But they rely on feeds from the other broadcasters to supply the data.
They do not generate the data themselves and certainly are not
responsible for last minute scheduling changes with from the likes of
the BBC.

It is up to Sky to ensure the accuracy of the data and the recording
functions in whatever way needed. Whilst it may not be possible for
anyone to ensure that last minute changes are reflected in the EPG
this will rarely result in an entire recording not taking place.

The discussion here is about who is responsible for these missed
recordings and I say that Sky are, regardless of where the error lies,
because Sky have the initial, final and only say in how the EPG and
the Sky+ works.

If anyone else had any say in either then it could be argued that the
responsibility lies elsewhere. However this is not the case.

By virtue of charging for the Sky+ service they also have a contractual
obligation to ensure the data is correct so that there are no missed recordings.

--
Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur