UK indoor

Tim Keating wrote:
On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 18:06:59 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:


From Digital Spy forum
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/...d.php?t=205206

MRDAB writes...
"Yeah I got my power arc aerial from there. it needs 2 batteries once in
a blue moon (use some good duracells) it lives ontop of my wardrobe and
is very happily picking up all muxes.

I'm abt 30 miles from sutton coldfield"


Snip...

The original AV forum poster doesn't mention in which direction he located from Sutton Coldfield; as there are several repeaters deployed
in and around the SC area. (Many of them well within a 30 mile radius, I.E. The AV forum poster could be right next to a repeater,
but our resident COFDM Troll would never tell you about that tidbit of info).

I assume he knows wherefrom he gets his signal. He could easily be in a
direction from Sutton Coldfield that has no repeater. Here is a map of
transmitter sites.

http://www.wolfbane.com/articles/ukdmap2.htm

And even if he is closer to a repeater than a main site the power level
of the repeater may be so low as that the main transmitter site is where
he still gets his signal. For example on this map of the UK Brierley
Hill is the nearest repeater to Sutton Coldfield about 15 miles WSW and
its six stations have power levels of 200, 100, and 80 Watts compared to
Sutton Coldfields power of 8 kW (5 transmitters) and 10 kW (one
transmitter).

P.S.. Why so many repeaters(~8) all within 30 miles of SC?? Must
be COFDM reception isn't all that good.

The power of COFDM lays in its use of multipath instead of avoidance of
it and its flexibility that ALLOWS the use of repeaters ON CHANNEL. A
feature not a negative. Something that 8-VSB would like to have and
sometimes it is suggested that someday if 8-VSB keeps improving it may
be able to do what COFDM did out of the box many years ago, SFNs and ON
CHANNEL repeaters.

There is a wide coverage area in which MRDAB can live where he would be
closer to Brierly and still have reception from Sutton Coldfield since
Sutton has between 40, 80 and 100 times the power ERP that Brierley has.
And as far as I can tell by the map there are only three such repeaters
within 30 miles of Sutton and they are all in the direction of and
around the other side of Birmingham. He could easily live to the South
East and his closest transmitter site would be Sutton regardless of
power levels.


Another Item.
Since when do UK residents measure their distances in Miles?? Awfully odd for a member who just signed up in March 2005..
Another BM plant?

I think the UK has been measuring their speed and distance in Miles
since the 16th Century when QE the 1st set the mile at 5280 ft. Their
speedometers and speed limit signs are in miles. It seems the BM plant
is smart enough to know this.


One last item, the UK doesn't have any HDTV broadcasts. But that didn't stop Booby from polluting the HDTV usenet group with his meanderings.

The UK has one and will have three satellite HD ventures. They are
looking into doing terrestrial HD also.

Bob Miller

Bob,

I was again accused of being 'you' over at AVS Forum because I asked
what is the difference between the front end of a 8-VSB tuner and the
front end of a COFDM tuner. You keep saying it is cheaper to make a
COFDM tuner, but with 8-VSB receiver chips priced so low ($8.), how can
that be? A COFDM HDTV receiver will need a scaler and the same
up-front components as a 8-VSB receiver,...right? Also you seem to be
comparing the cost of USA 1080i/720p capable receivers with UK's meager
600 line capable receivers. Isn't some of the price difference due to
the fact that one is high definition and the other is not?

IB (not Bob Miller - laughs!)

PS Current UK COFDM receiver don't need scalers at all because they
only have one 600 line TV standard to deal with,...right? Don't they
have just one audio standard as well? So, aren't you comparing apples
and oranges?

IB

On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Jeff Rife wrote:
Bob keeps spouting the myth about "broadcasters depending on must-carry",
when the reality is that only a very few stations in most markets ever
invoke "must carry" on DBS or cable. Any ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, WB, or PBS
station has no problem getting their signal carried without "must carry".
Only low-value stations seem to have this problem.
For those stations (home shopping channel repeaters, etc.), I have to admit
that I agree with Bob that "must carry" is the only thing keeping them
going.

The sad thing is that "must carry" was not intended to benefit home
shopping channel repeaters. Rather, it was intended to benefit such
stations as UHF foreign-language channel that served the immigrant
community; a channel which is of *great* value to a minority that would
otherwise be neglected.

It seems to me that "must carry" rules need to be revisited.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 14:51:31 -0400, Tim Keating
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 18:06:59 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:

From Digital Spy forum
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/...d.php?t=205206

MRDAB writes...
"Yeah I got my power arc aerial from there. it needs 2 batteries once in
a blue moon (use some good duracells) it lives ontop of my wardrobe and
is very happily picking up all muxes.

I'm abt 30 miles from sutton coldfield"

Snip...

The original AV forum poster doesn't mention in which direction he
located from Sutton Coldfield; as there are several repeaters deployed
in and around the SC area. (Many of them well within a 30 mile
radius, I.E. The AV forum poster could be right next to a repeater,
but our resident COFDM Troll would never tell you about that tidbit of
info).

P.S.. Why so many repeaters(~8) all within 30 miles of SC??
Must be COFDM reception isn't all that good.

Another Item.
Since when do UK residents measure their distances in Miles??
Awfully odd for a member who just signed up in March 2005..
^^^^^^^^^^^ this info is incorrect.. sorry..

The member Bob quoted "Gazza487" who signed up in Jul 2004..


One last item, the UK doesn't have any HDTV broadcasts.
But that didn't stop Booby from polluting the HDTV usenet group
with his meanderings.

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:41:25 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:

Tim Keating wrote:
On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 18:06:59 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:


From Digital Spy forum
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/...d.php?t=205206

MRDAB writes...
"Yeah I got my power arc aerial from there. it needs 2 batteries once in
a blue moon (use some good duracells) it lives ontop of my wardrobe and
is very happily picking up all muxes.

I'm abt 30 miles from sutton coldfield"


Snip...

The original AV forum poster doesn't mention in which direction he located from Sutton Coldfield; as there are several repeaters deployed
in and around the SC area. (Many of them well within a 30 mile radius, I.E. The AV forum poster could be right next to a repeater,
but our resident COFDM Troll would never tell you about that tidbit of info).

I assume he knows wherefrom he gets his signal. He could easily be in a
direction from Sutton Coldfield that has no repeater. Here is a map of
transmitter sites.

http://www.wolfbane.com/articles/ukdmap2.htm

Judging by my recent research in thed SC area..
I would say the map quoted by your link is incomplete.
(I.E. It's missing several transmission towers).

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 16:16:16 -0400, Tim Keating
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 14:51:31 -0400, Tim Keating
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 18:06:59 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:

From Digital Spy forum
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/...d.php?t=205206

MRDAB writes...
"Yeah I got my power arc aerial from there. it needs 2 batteries once in
a blue moon (use some good duracells) it lives ontop of my wardrobe and
is very happily picking up all muxes.

I'm abt 30 miles from sutton coldfield"

Snip...

The original AV forum poster doesn't mention in which direction he
located from Sutton Coldfield; as there are several repeaters deployed
in and around the SC area. (Many of them well within a 30 mile
radius, I.E. The AV forum poster could be right next to a repeater,
but our resident COFDM Troll would never tell you about that tidbit of
info).

P.S.. Why so many repeaters(~8) all within 30 miles of SC??
Must be COFDM reception isn't all that good.

Here is a partial MAP of DTV retransmission towers within 62 miles
of Sutton Coldfield.. Note: Each tower transmits roughly the same
programming.

http://www.kswindells.34sp.com/freev...meNGR=SK113003


Another Item.
Since when do UK residents measure their distances in Miles??
Awfully odd for a member who just signed up in March 2005..
^^^^^^^^^^^ this info is incorrect.. sorry..

The member Bob quoted "Gazza487" who signed up in Jul 2004..


One last item, the UK doesn't have any HDTV broadcasts.
But that didn't stop Booby from polluting the HDTV usenet group
with his meanderings.

wrote:
PS Current UK COFDM receiver don't need scalers at all because they
only have one 600 line TV standard to deal with,...right? Don't they
have just one audio standard as well? So, aren't you comparing apples
and oranges?


Yes, he has been doing that for years. He gets called on it _every_
time, but he continues in the hopes of misleading the unwary.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:41:25 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:

Tim Keating wrote:
On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 18:06:59 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:


From Digital Spy forum
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/...d.php?t=205206

MRDAB writes...
"Yeah I got my power arc aerial from there. it needs 2 batteries once in
a blue moon (use some good duracells) it lives ontop of my wardrobe and
is very happily picking up all muxes.

I'm abt 30 miles from sutton coldfield"


Snip...

The original AV forum poster doesn't mention in which direction he located from Sutton Coldfield; as there are several repeaters deployed
in and around the SC area. (Many of them well within a 30 mile radius, I.E. The AV forum poster could be right next to a repeater,
but our resident COFDM Troll would never tell you about that tidbit of info).

I assume he knows wherefrom he gets his signal. He could easily be in a
direction from Sutton Coldfield that has no repeater. Here is a map of
transmitter sites.

http://www.wolfbane.com/articles/ukdmap2.htm

Judging by my recent research in thed SC area..
I would say the map quoted by your link is incomplete.
(I.E. It's missing several transmission towers).

Here is a partial MAP of DTV retransmission towers within 56 miles
of Sutton Coldfield.. Note: Each tower transmits roughly the same
programming.

http://www.kswindells.34sp.com/freev...meNGR=SK113003

Tim Keating wrote:
On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:41:25 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:


Tim Keating wrote:

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 18:06:59 GMT, Bob Miller
wrote:


From Digital Spy forum

http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/...d.php?t=205206

MRDAB writes...
"Yeah I got my power arc aerial from there. it needs 2 batteries once in
a blue moon (use some good duracells) it lives ontop of my wardrobe and
is very happily picking up all muxes.

I'm abt 30 miles from sutton coldfield"


Snip...

The original AV forum poster doesn't mention in which direction he located from Sutton Coldfield; as there are several repeaters deployed
in and around the SC area. (Many of them well within a 30 mile radius, I.E. The AV forum poster could be right next to a repeater,
but our resident COFDM Troll would never tell you about that tidbit of info).


I assume he knows wherefrom he gets his signal. He could easily be in a direction from Sutton Coldfield that has no repeater. Here is a map of
transmitter sites.

http://www.wolfbane.com/articles/ukdmap2.htm


Judging by my recent research in thed SC area..
I would say the map quoted by your link is incomplete.
(I.E. It's missing several transmission towers).

Here is a partial MAP of DTV retransmission towers within 56 miles of Sutton Coldfield.. Note: Each tower transmits roughly the same
programming.

http://www.kswindells.34sp.com/freev...meNGR=SK113003


Well according to your map I was wrong. I thought there was three
repeaters within 30 miles of Sutton Coldfield but there are only two. In
your post above you say there are "Many of them well within a 30 mile
radius". The only two I can see on your map are Brierley Hill: 24.6 km
: 233' and Bromsgrove: 31.9 km : 211', both to the South West.

Bromsgrove is operating at 50 Watts (2 channels) and 25 Watts (4
channels) which makes Sutton Coldfields lowest powered transmitter 160
to 320 times as powerful as the transmitters at Bromsgrove. All of
these stations at high UHF that normally need more power; 34, 41 and 68.

Bromsgrove, Channel 34 at 25 and 50 Watts
Brierley Hill, Channel 68 at 200, 100 and 80 Watts
Sutton Coldfield, Channel 41 at 8 kW and 10 kW

A typical US Transmitter on such UHF channels would operate at

#41 KKPX CA SAN JOSE 1000 kW
#41 WZVN-TV FL NAPLES 1000 kW
#41 WXYZ-TV MI DETROIT 700 kW

#68 KRCA CA RIVERSIDE 1000 kW (the only station on 68 -
no one likes these real high UHF power bills)

#34 KWGN-TV CO DENVER 1000 kW (when they finally let them build a
tower)
#34 WUSA DC WASHINGTON 1000 kW
#34 WDAF-TV MO KANSAS CITY 1000 kW

Again Sutton Coldfield operates at flea power compared to even what in
the US would be called low power and these repeater sites operate at
NANO power. And our friend gets good reception of all muxes (stations)
at 30 miles. He probably lives to the South East where on your map there
are no repeaters at all.

http://www.kswindells.34sp.com/freev...t=Show+Terrain

And in New York City last week using a receiver with a 5th gen LG chip
in it that has benefited from 8 to 10 years of development, we could not
receive WCBS broadcasting from the Empire State Building at 34 the St.
in an apartment on West 72nd St. about 40 some blocks away.

#56 WCBS-TV NY NEW YORK 349 kW

This CBS station is operating at 35 times the power of the highest
powered transmitter and 43 times the lowest powered transmitter at
Sutton Coldfield and can't be received at 40 blocks (or even 9 blocks)
while Sutton can easily be received with a simple omni (arc) antenna in
someones bedroom on the top of his wardrobe at 30 miles.

It would seem that the story that COFDM needs hundreds of times the
power that 8-VSB needs is backwards. In fact I don't think you would be
able to receive CBS on 72nd St. with the state of the art 5th gen
receiver even if the 8-VSB power was so high that the antenna was melting.

Bob Miller