UK indoor

Bob,

So who is going to reimburse consumers, manufacturers, broadcasters,
and retailers for all the now useless 8-VSB equipment? The government?
Are people just going to have to take the financial hit? Have you
figured out the total cost to society of a change? It would certainly
be in the billions of dollars.

I would love to get the Chinese version of COFDM combined with the
Microsoft's codec and go back in a time machine to 1995 and give the
FCC a demonstration. But I really think too much water has passed
under the bridge to change things now. I can't find any time machines
for sale on eBay, so I think we are out of luck.

IB

L David Matheny wrote:
"Bob Miller" wrote in message nk.net...
snip

I don't believe commercial TV can survive without mobile reception.
Any broadcaster using current spectrum and 8-VSB is condemned
to compete with satellite, cable, Internet and new mobile services.

snip
I've never had satellite or cable, and I'm not particularly interested
in watching TV over the Internet or on a mobile phone. I'm also
not interested in paying a big monthly fee just to see more channels
of garbage. Whatever shakes out in OTA, that's what I'll probably
be using. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.


You don't know if your particularly interested in watching TV over the
Internet because you don't know what the offering will be or what the
experience will be like.

You may not like the idea of watching TV on your cell phone but the fact
that a cell phone or other such small device can receive the DTV signal
with an antenna one inch long is what is important. Using such small
device you will be able to watch DTV on any size screen you want
anywhere you want including in your living room which is the only place
you want to watch it I assume from your post. Your not open to any new
idea what-so-ever no matter how much easier or cheaper it might be.

You are just hog tied to what you know right now and no one can change
your mind about anything ever. Did I paint the picture right?

And I am sure you are not the only one like that or who feels that way.

Bob Miller

Alex Perez wrote in reply to a post from an original posting by another
party:

"Yeah! because we all know that RF energy behaves differently when it's
inside arbitrary political borders!!!!!!!!!!! Idiot."----



Reply:
Maybe I should be more specific.I was not referring to the inherent
nature of RF energy itself.If you would note,I used the word
TOPOGRAPHICS in my reply,which by definition means SURFACE FEATURES AND
ELEVATIONS OF THE TERRAIN IN WHICH THE RF ENERGY IS BEING USED.As far as
I know,the UK does not have as many or as much skyscraper signal canyons
like the US does.Surface features can block,reflect and obstruct and
multipath distort signal frequencies of what over the air terrain
signals are being used for television (as well as radio).Chicago,New
York City,Houston TX ,Detroit,MI and others represent challenges to that
kind of receptivity that is not evidenced in the UK perhaps maybe save
for London.Even then I am not so sure as their buildings are still not
all that tall.
Even mountain ranges can affect signal strengths due to their location
and/or proximity to a transmitted signal.Again,the topography of the US
is vastly different than in the UK.We have mountain ranges that are
almost 1800 miles long.I seriously doubt there is any corollary to this
in the UK.
There are other minor considerations as well,but I will not go into
here.The UK in this regard HAS VERY LITTLE IN COMMON WITH THE US.
Not only that,but the political systems involved are vastly different
also with respect to legal issues and licensing.
SO,IN EFFECT,COMPARING THE US AND UK WITH THEIR DIVERSE
TOPOGRAPHIES,THEIR DISSIMILAR POLITICAL SYSTEMS AND DIFFERING SIGNAL
INFRASTRUCTURES IS A NON SEQUITUR IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.....

Is that succinct enough for you?

wrote:
Bob,

So who is going to reimburse consumers, manufacturers, broadcasters, and retailers for all the now useless 8-VSB equipment? The government?
Are people just going to have to take the financial hit? Have you figured out the total cost to society of a change? It would certainly
be in the billions of dollars.

I would love to get the Chinese version of COFDM combined with the Microsoft's codec and go back in a time machine to 1995 and give the
FCC a demonstration. But I really think too much water has passed under the bridge to change things now. I can't find any time machines
for sale on eBay, so I think we are out of luck.

IB

Why the same people who are reimbursing all the portable NTSC TV owners
or all the analog TV owners I should say. The same people that will buy
a converter for every device that has an NTSC tuner in it today or do
you believe all 25 million analog TV sets sold this year are just plain
out of luck because they should have known that NTSC was on its last
legs and would be replaced sometime soon. Or the 25 million that will be
sold this year for that matter. We know a transition is coming but no
one has told the public. No notice, no stickers na da.

Is there a book somewhere that list how much time is required before a
country can switch to a better modulation when they find out the one
they have s**ks? If you have to take care of everyone that would be hurt
by a modulation switch then the interval between changes shouldn't
matter. The only thing that should matter is does it make sense to
change? If we don't change now will we have to change latter? How much
later and why should we wait? If we change now will it cost more or will
it cost more latter when we change then? How much do we gain by changing
now and how much do we lose if we change later?

And if we change again should we think more about how we go about this
in the first place? Should we lock ourselves into a system that does not
allow for an upgrade even when we know that an upgrade will likely be a
good idea and we have a pretty good idea when it could take place and
there is something we could do to prepare for it? (MPEG4, VP6 were well
along in planning stages five years ago).

Or could we just allow both systems to operate in the same space.

How about that one???

If 8-VSB is as good as many say here there is no NO risk that anything
will happen. NO one will switch to COFDM. If they are anywhere near
being equal NO broadcaster will switch. It would be crazy to be that
other modulation that requires another receiver.

If COFDM and 8-VSB are anywhere near being equal in performance there is
NO risk to 8-VSB in allowing COFDM as Sinclair ask for in 2000. What the
8-VSB proponents knew in 2000 and know very well today is that if COFDM
is allowed in the US ALL broadcasters would switch en masse, in a heart
beat.

Bob Miller

"Bob Miller" wrote in message
nk.net...

Your [sic] not open to any new
idea what-so-ever [sic] no matter how much easier or cheaper it might be.

You are just hog tied to what you know right now and no one can change
your mind about anything ever. Did I paint the picture right?

And I am sure you are not the only one like that or who feels that way.

Bob Miller

You're ragging on the guy for no other reason than you don't like his
expressed
viewing choices! That's low.

I have almost nobody in the kill-file, but you're getting tempting. ...
and spare me
the patronizing remark that it's my decision whom to kill-file.

Sal M. Onella wrote:
"Bob Miller" wrote in message
nk.net...


Your [sic] not open to any new
idea what-so-ever [sic] no matter how much easier or cheaper it might be.

You are just hog tied to what you know right now and no one can change
your mind about anything ever. Did I paint the picture right?

And I am sure you are not the only one like that or who feels that way.

Bob Miller


You're ragging on the guy for no other reason than you don't like his
expressed
viewing choices! That's low.

I have almost nobody in the kill-file, but you're getting tempting. ...
and spare me
the patronizing remark that it's my decision whom to kill-file.


And I thought he was ragging on me.

OK my point is not his expressed viewing choice. He has every right to
it. My problem is that he wants to or is happy with a system that limits
everyone else to his viewing choice when we could have a system that
works fine for his viewing choice and happens to work in New York City
for the citizens that live there as well.

They should be able to use their TV spectrum as well as he can to watch
DTV. Especially since it does nothing to hurt or deprive him of
anything. People are constantly saying I got mine and its just tough
luck if you can't get yours.

Why? When it would be even easier for him to get what he wants while
others are not deprived. And it would even cost him less. It would also
have speeded up the DTV transition and all things HD. This morrass we
are in is not helping anything DTV related.

Staying the course with 8-VSB will kill OTA DTV below channels 51 within
ten years in my opinion. It will then be a few more years of waiting for
this spectrum to be re distributed to new users who will not be using
8-VSB whatever they are doing. I don't think this is idle speculation.
It has been two years since the outgoing Chairman of the FCC asked the
question, "What are we protecting" in regard to all OTA DTV broadcast
spectrum and the question was generated by what he thought was the OTA
population of 15% who depend on OTA.

The latest figures that the FCC's boss, the Congress is working with
talk of only 4.6% of the population that not only relies on OTA but does
so because it cannot afford cable or satellite. Congress is not going to
protect the other 11.4% who either don't care for TV at all or care so
little as to not buy cable or satellite. They are now focused on that
4.6% number and the question will (has already by suggestion) come up
again "What are we protecting?"

OTA days could be numbered. If Congress can get billions for stations
above channel 51 they can get many more for stations below 51.

Bob Miller

On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
Staying the course with 8-VSB will kill OTA DTV below channels 51 within ten
years in my opinion.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.

In the case of Psycho Bob Miller, you can be confident that his opinions
are wrong. He has a perfect track record of being wrong in the past, and
there's no reason to believe that this will change in the future.

The only reason why Psycho Bob continues to post his nonsense is that he
is angry that his side lost. He is unable to let go, and instead is doing
this as a sick form of revenge. He hopes that, to the extent that he
creates fear, uncertainty, and doubt, that he will harm those who defeated
him.

This is why he is Psycho Bob. Mentally healthy individuals do not do
this. Mentally healthy individuals accept defeat and move on.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

On Sat, 2 Apr 2005, wrote:
So who is going to reimburse consumers, manufacturers, broadcasters,
and retailers for all the now useless 8-VSB equipment? The government?
Are people just going to have to take the financial hit?

That's exactly what Psycho Bob wants.

I would love to get the Chinese version of COFDM combined with the
Microsoft's codec

No you don't.

Before you make such statements, you ought to study the technical issues
and the differences between China's conditions and North American
conditions.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Phil Ross wrote:
Why are you so hell bet on trading some 8VSB multi-path problems for COFDM
impulse noise problems?

Psycho Bob has a twisted need for revenge.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Bob Miller wrote:
But you are simply wrong. It will happen here for commercial television
even if the modulation for stations below 51 is not changed. Stations
above 51 will use COFDM and stations below will go out of business.

So we can be secure. This is yet another prediction by bob. So far he
has been wrong 100% of the time.

Congress will then auction off those stations and again they will be
used with COFDM for similar services.

You really need to update your meds.

I believe that will happen even if 5th gen receivers show up and do well
because I don't believe commercial TV can survive without mobile
reception.

Despite the fact that they have done so from the very beginning of
broadcast TV.

Any broadcaster using current spectrum and 8-VSB is condemned
to compete with satellite, cable, Internet and new mobile services.

And will be able to succeed.

Current broadcasters are not doing at all well with their analog
broadcasting.

Again, I challenge you to cite a single major network affiliate that has
gone under.

They depend totally on must carry. Sooner or later
Congress is going to notice that they are simply not using those
channels below 51.

Really? What makes you think that they are ignorant of the uses of that
spectrum.

That the 15% is a myth, that it is more like 4.6% who
depend on OTA and who can't afford to buy cable or satellite and when
they discover that 3.6% of those steal cable or satellite the game is up
and they are going to take back that unused spectrum, channels 2 to 51
and sell it off.

That's odd, you recently used the 15-40% statistics (you know, the real
ones) to support the size of the US OTA market in another post. Why do
you bother to lie when you provide the proof that you are lying almost
as soon as you lie?

That is the way it is going or do you expect that magically someday soon
the trend will change and people will start buying OTA receivers and the
curve will turn up all by itself?

There are probably more OTA users now, with 8-VSB + NTSC than there were
with NTSC alone.

LG doesn't think so, they are betting
that the only receivers to be sold in the US are MANDATED ones in
integrated sets

Which shows good strategic thinking on their part. They get to sell the
parts and collect the license fee.

that very few will ever hook up to an antenna.

In your fantasy world.

8-VSB and MPEG2 are doomed one way or another. They simply can't and by
the way are not competing.

Do you get your grammar lessons from the same place you get your
business advice?

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game