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Terrestrial HDTV ready for spectrum release



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 2nd 04, 04:54 PM
Alan White
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On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:40:34 +0100, Roderick Stewart
wrote:

so somebody might remember how long ago that must have been,


Middle '80s?

--
Alan White
Twenty-eight miles NW of Glasgow.
Overlooking Loch Goil and Loch Long in Argyll, Scotland.
http://tinyurl.com/55v3
  #22  
Old July 2nd 04, 06:01 PM
Roderick Stewart
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In article , Mark Carver wrote:
IBC 1988; a Sony HDTV event held at Sussex uni, along with a special show in
Brighton's seafront Cinema ? Or the UK's last ever IBC in 1990, again Sony were
showing their stuff in a giant tent on the beach ?


Possibly both. I do remember one of the HDTV exhibitions being at a separate
location a short bus ride out of town. The cameras at that time would have been
using Plumbicon tubes and the displays were nearly all CRTs, some of them back
projected. There were even some cinema size projectors in a darkened hall,
including a three lens Eidophor which was showing electronic pictures brighter
clearer and steadier than anything I have ever seen in a cinema.

Even then, sixteen years ago, the technology must have been several years old,
because some of the major manufacturers had lists of productions that had been
made using it. Which means that we are now just beginning to think about how we
might implement something that from the figures being bandied about is not quite
as good as what was available about twenty years ago.

Rod.

  #23  
Old July 2nd 04, 06:01 PM
Roderick Stewart
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In article , Mark Carver wrote:
IBC 1988; a Sony HDTV event held at Sussex uni, along with a special show in
Brighton's seafront Cinema ? Or the UK's last ever IBC in 1990, again Sony were
showing their stuff in a giant tent on the beach ?


Possibly both. I do remember one of the HDTV exhibitions being at a separate
location a short bus ride out of town. The cameras at that time would have been
using Plumbicon tubes and the displays were nearly all CRTs, some of them back
projected. There were even some cinema size projectors in a darkened hall,
including a three lens Eidophor which was showing electronic pictures brighter
clearer and steadier than anything I have ever seen in a cinema.

Even then, sixteen years ago, the technology must have been several years old,
because some of the major manufacturers had lists of productions that had been
made using it. Which means that we are now just beginning to think about how we
might implement something that from the figures being bandied about is not quite
as good as what was available about twenty years ago.

Rod.

  #24  
Old July 2nd 04, 11:25 PM
Stephen Neal
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Default

Roderick Stewart wrote:
In article , Mark Carver wrote:
IBC 1988; a Sony HDTV event held at Sussex uni, along with a special
show in Brighton's seafront Cinema ? Or the UK's last ever IBC in
1990, again Sony were showing their stuff in a giant tent on the
beach ?


Possibly both. I do remember one of the HDTV exhibitions being at a
separate location a short bus ride out of town.


I was at both as well ISTR.

The cameras at that
time would have been using Plumbicon tubes and the displays were
nearly all CRTs, some of them back projected.


Nope - the 1125/60 cameras were based on Saticons, not Plumbicons, ISTR,
only the BTS 1250/50 cameras were Plumbicon based? By 1992 there were
1250/50 CCD cameras on Centre Court or Court Number 1 at Wimbledon (and
broadcast in HDMAC via Olympus)

Having seen 1250/50 HDMAC off-air - and the same picture received in 625 on
a D or D2 MAC receiver I'm quite glad we didn't go that route. A picture
with 50/25/12.5 Hz refresh rates depending on the content of each macroblock
was quite disconcerting...

There were even some
cinema size projectors in a darkened hall, including a three lens
Eidophor which was showing electronic pictures brighter clearer and
steadier than anything I have ever seen in a cinema.


In 1990 there were double-stacked projectors using polarising filters for 3D
HD - very impressive - but not exactly compressed to a broadcast bit rate.


Even then, sixteen years ago, the technology must have been several
years old, because some of the major manufacturers had lists of
productions that had been made using it. Which means that we are now
just beginning to think about how we might implement something that
from the figures being bandied about is not quite as good as what was
available about twenty years ago.


The Japanese HiVision system was the main system on-display, with a bit of
Eureka 1250 (though not much Eureka kit). Both are comparable in resolution
terms with the current 1080/60i system in use in Japan in vertical scanlines
(ISTR that 1125 was around 1035/60i active?) However most of the kit
supporting this was either 1" digital or 1/2" analogue (and quite massively
bandwith reduced in the case of the 1/2" UniHi system) - and the Muse
transmission system (used in Japan) was quite a major compromise. The
cameras were hardly sensitive (the older and better did some stuff for BBC
R&D in both 1125/60i and 1250/50i in the early 90s - and the cameras/lenses
weren't a patch on the 625/50i stuff routinely used at that point) and the
recording technology not suitable for normal broadcast deployment at the
time (the Beeb were using 4xD1 3/4" DVTRs to record a single 1250/50 stream
when a single 1/2" DigiBeta was just becoming available)

The picture quality delivered by 1920x1080/50i now is likely to be better
than either the 1125/60i or 1250/50i analogue or digital systems demo-ed
then - and actually exists as a broadcast production system (i.e. cameras,
vision mixers, VTRs, DVEs etc. now actually exist to produce in
1080/50or60i - unlike the experimental stuff on show then)

It has taken until roughly this point for technology to produce HDTV
pictures, record them, compress them and transmit them at a level the
broadcasters can afford. Given that 1080/50i and 720/50p deliver a similar
vertical resolution (though 720/50p is likely to be more efficiently
compressed) I suspect the 1080/i vs 720/p debate will run and run over here
as it has in the US.

Steve


  #25  
Old July 2nd 04, 11:25 PM
Stephen Neal
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Roderick Stewart wrote:
In article , Mark Carver wrote:
IBC 1988; a Sony HDTV event held at Sussex uni, along with a special
show in Brighton's seafront Cinema ? Or the UK's last ever IBC in
1990, again Sony were showing their stuff in a giant tent on the
beach ?


Possibly both. I do remember one of the HDTV exhibitions being at a
separate location a short bus ride out of town.


I was at both as well ISTR.

The cameras at that
time would have been using Plumbicon tubes and the displays were
nearly all CRTs, some of them back projected.


Nope - the 1125/60 cameras were based on Saticons, not Plumbicons, ISTR,
only the BTS 1250/50 cameras were Plumbicon based? By 1992 there were
1250/50 CCD cameras on Centre Court or Court Number 1 at Wimbledon (and
broadcast in HDMAC via Olympus)

Having seen 1250/50 HDMAC off-air - and the same picture received in 625 on
a D or D2 MAC receiver I'm quite glad we didn't go that route. A picture
with 50/25/12.5 Hz refresh rates depending on the content of each macroblock
was quite disconcerting...

There were even some
cinema size projectors in a darkened hall, including a three lens
Eidophor which was showing electronic pictures brighter clearer and
steadier than anything I have ever seen in a cinema.


In 1990 there were double-stacked projectors using polarising filters for 3D
HD - very impressive - but not exactly compressed to a broadcast bit rate.


Even then, sixteen years ago, the technology must have been several
years old, because some of the major manufacturers had lists of
productions that had been made using it. Which means that we are now
just beginning to think about how we might implement something that
from the figures being bandied about is not quite as good as what was
available about twenty years ago.


The Japanese HiVision system was the main system on-display, with a bit of
Eureka 1250 (though not much Eureka kit). Both are comparable in resolution
terms with the current 1080/60i system in use in Japan in vertical scanlines
(ISTR that 1125 was around 1035/60i active?) However most of the kit
supporting this was either 1" digital or 1/2" analogue (and quite massively
bandwith reduced in the case of the 1/2" UniHi system) - and the Muse
transmission system (used in Japan) was quite a major compromise. The
cameras were hardly sensitive (the older and better did some stuff for BBC
R&D in both 1125/60i and 1250/50i in the early 90s - and the cameras/lenses
weren't a patch on the 625/50i stuff routinely used at that point) and the
recording technology not suitable for normal broadcast deployment at the
time (the Beeb were using 4xD1 3/4" DVTRs to record a single 1250/50 stream
when a single 1/2" DigiBeta was just becoming available)

The picture quality delivered by 1920x1080/50i now is likely to be better
than either the 1125/60i or 1250/50i analogue or digital systems demo-ed
then - and actually exists as a broadcast production system (i.e. cameras,
vision mixers, VTRs, DVEs etc. now actually exist to produce in
1080/50or60i - unlike the experimental stuff on show then)

It has taken until roughly this point for technology to produce HDTV
pictures, record them, compress them and transmit them at a level the
broadcasters can afford. Given that 1080/50i and 720/50p deliver a similar
vertical resolution (though 720/50p is likely to be more efficiently
compressed) I suspect the 1080/i vs 720/p debate will run and run over here
as it has in the US.

Steve


  #26  
Old July 3rd 04, 02:01 AM
Peter Hewitt-Dutton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ESPN manages it well enough, although not too often, looks bloody good
though


"Stephen Neal" wrote in message
...
Stephen wrote:
It was the satellite man from SES who suggested no HDTV on
terrestrial until analogue switch off, and he would. The man from BBC
R&D says, "It's possible for DVB-T, to deliver these services in the
NEAR future". If they want to make an early start I think the BBC
already have room for HDTV on Multiplex B. Channels 701 and 702 use
up half a mulitplex, and are put to very little good use for the
majority of the year (the current Euro 2004 & Wimbledon coverage
being the exception rather than the rule). Timesharing this capacity,
using BBCi downtime for an HDTV channel instead of static captions,
would be good enough for a startup service of HDTV.


I guess the space in Mux B could be used for an HD service using a newer
codec (MPEG4 or WM9) - at 1280x720 rather than 1920x1080? MPEG2 would be

a
squeeze though.

I think the US ATSC stuff uses 13-18Mbs for a single 1280x720-1920x1080 HD
stream which would be an entire 18Mbs Mux - though returning to 64QAM -

only
a suggestion ;-) - would allow BBC Four and an ATSC-rate MPEG2 HD stream

to
co-exist in Mux B.


Even ITV may find room for an HDTV channel on Multiplex A if, as
frequently predicted, Top Up TV fails.


Err - but ITV don't own Mux A - that is SDN's isn't it - though I suspect
ITV1 could buy some space in it? If TUTV failed then there would be space
in ITV/C4's Mux 1 - in the Channel Four half though.

ITV will be desperate for
their own HDTV outlet once Sky start screening commercials in HD to
viewers with large flat panel HD screens at home. Advertisers are
ITV's top priority, and ITV will
risk losing them to Sky if they don't have an HDTV channel of
their own.


Are any of the adverts in the US HD yet? It is something I have never

been
clear about.

Plus, they won't want to be in the position of saying that
you have to get a Sky dish to watch ITV in High Definition. They will
want to deliver HDTV through an aerial, and start as soon as Sky
start HDTV on satellite. ITV cannot afford to wait for analogue
switch off while Sky take away all the advertisers who understandably
want their commercials to be seen in the highest definition possible
to create the greatest impact on viewers.


It will be interesting to see what Sky do in HD. My first guess is that
their movie channels will be HD, and Sky One (which mainly shows US

imports
already produced in HD for the US market) will move over. Sport would
probably be the main driving force for HD - but will also be one of the

most
expensive upgrades - as OB facilities providers would charge a premium

(and
need to upgrade their facilities) to Sky etc. - whereas the Movies and Sky
One cost increases would be marginal, Sky Sports upgrading would be
significant.

Steve




  #27  
Old July 3rd 04, 02:01 AM
Peter Hewitt-Dutton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ESPN manages it well enough, although not too often, looks bloody good
though


"Stephen Neal" wrote in message
...
Stephen wrote:
It was the satellite man from SES who suggested no HDTV on
terrestrial until analogue switch off, and he would. The man from BBC
R&D says, "It's possible for DVB-T, to deliver these services in the
NEAR future". If they want to make an early start I think the BBC
already have room for HDTV on Multiplex B. Channels 701 and 702 use
up half a mulitplex, and are put to very little good use for the
majority of the year (the current Euro 2004 & Wimbledon coverage
being the exception rather than the rule). Timesharing this capacity,
using BBCi downtime for an HDTV channel instead of static captions,
would be good enough for a startup service of HDTV.


I guess the space in Mux B could be used for an HD service using a newer
codec (MPEG4 or WM9) - at 1280x720 rather than 1920x1080? MPEG2 would be

a
squeeze though.

I think the US ATSC stuff uses 13-18Mbs for a single 1280x720-1920x1080 HD
stream which would be an entire 18Mbs Mux - though returning to 64QAM -

only
a suggestion ;-) - would allow BBC Four and an ATSC-rate MPEG2 HD stream

to
co-exist in Mux B.


Even ITV may find room for an HDTV channel on Multiplex A if, as
frequently predicted, Top Up TV fails.


Err - but ITV don't own Mux A - that is SDN's isn't it - though I suspect
ITV1 could buy some space in it? If TUTV failed then there would be space
in ITV/C4's Mux 1 - in the Channel Four half though.

ITV will be desperate for
their own HDTV outlet once Sky start screening commercials in HD to
viewers with large flat panel HD screens at home. Advertisers are
ITV's top priority, and ITV will
risk losing them to Sky if they don't have an HDTV channel of
their own.


Are any of the adverts in the US HD yet? It is something I have never

been
clear about.

Plus, they won't want to be in the position of saying that
you have to get a Sky dish to watch ITV in High Definition. They will
want to deliver HDTV through an aerial, and start as soon as Sky
start HDTV on satellite. ITV cannot afford to wait for analogue
switch off while Sky take away all the advertisers who understandably
want their commercials to be seen in the highest definition possible
to create the greatest impact on viewers.


It will be interesting to see what Sky do in HD. My first guess is that
their movie channels will be HD, and Sky One (which mainly shows US

imports
already produced in HD for the US market) will move over. Sport would
probably be the main driving force for HD - but will also be one of the

most
expensive upgrades - as OB facilities providers would charge a premium

(and
need to upgrade their facilities) to Sky etc. - whereas the Movies and Sky
One cost increases would be marginal, Sky Sports upgrading would be
significant.

Steve




  #28  
Old July 3rd 04, 02:59 AM
Stephen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The Japanese HiVision system was the main system on-display, with a bit of
Eureka 1250 (though not much Eureka kit). Both are comparable in
resolution terms with the current 1080/60i system in use in Japan in
vertical scanlines (ISTR that 1125 was around 1035/60i active?)


I saw a Tektronix wallchart at the Production Show, and they refer to "the
1125 lines system, commonly refeered to as 1080i", and "the 750 lines system
commonly referred to as 720p". It looks as though they have standardised on
the field blanking for both of these systems, and that "1080/60i" is infact
the same as the established Japanese 1125 lines system, with the same line
frequency, but shorter field blanking. They have halved it from the standard
8% (used with 625/575, 525/483, and the original 1125/1035), to 4% on
both 1125/1080i and 750/720p. 720p has exactly two thirds of the line
numbers of 1080i, for both active lines and blanked lines.

Given that 1080/50i and 720/50p deliver a similar
vertical resolution (though 720/50p is likely to be more efficiently
compressed) I suspect the 1080/i vs 720/p debate will run and run over
here as it has in the US.


I don't think it will run for too long. 1080 is a bigger number so everyone
will go 1080 regardless, even if the picture quality is worse. Consumers
lack the technical knowledge to know how a lower number of lines could ever
possibly give you a better picture, and it's not just them. The vast
majority of financial backers and managers involved in television also lack
this kind of technical knowledge, so the system with the bigger number is
sure to come out on top.



  #29  
Old July 3rd 04, 02:59 AM
Stephen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The Japanese HiVision system was the main system on-display, with a bit of
Eureka 1250 (though not much Eureka kit). Both are comparable in
resolution terms with the current 1080/60i system in use in Japan in
vertical scanlines (ISTR that 1125 was around 1035/60i active?)


I saw a Tektronix wallchart at the Production Show, and they refer to "the
1125 lines system, commonly refeered to as 1080i", and "the 750 lines system
commonly referred to as 720p". It looks as though they have standardised on
the field blanking for both of these systems, and that "1080/60i" is infact
the same as the established Japanese 1125 lines system, with the same line
frequency, but shorter field blanking. They have halved it from the standard
8% (used with 625/575, 525/483, and the original 1125/1035), to 4% on
both 1125/1080i and 750/720p. 720p has exactly two thirds of the line
numbers of 1080i, for both active lines and blanked lines.

Given that 1080/50i and 720/50p deliver a similar
vertical resolution (though 720/50p is likely to be more efficiently
compressed) I suspect the 1080/i vs 720/p debate will run and run over
here as it has in the US.


I don't think it will run for too long. 1080 is a bigger number so everyone
will go 1080 regardless, even if the picture quality is worse. Consumers
lack the technical knowledge to know how a lower number of lines could ever
possibly give you a better picture, and it's not just them. The vast
majority of financial backers and managers involved in television also lack
this kind of technical knowledge, so the system with the bigger number is
sure to come out on top.



  #30  
Old July 5th 04, 10:51 AM
David Robinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Stephen" wrote in message ...

I don't think it will run for too long. 1080 is a bigger number so everyone
will go 1080 regardless, even if the picture quality is worse. Consumers
lack the technical knowledge to know how a lower number of lines could ever
possibly give you a better picture, and it's not just them. The vast
majority of financial backers and managers involved in television also lack
this kind of technical knowledge, so the system with the bigger number is
sure to come out on top.


I wonder if we'll be so slow off the blocks in the UK that when we get
HDTV we'll see 1080 50p? Or even 100p?

It would be nice if someone could build a system which could
transparently handle the common frame rates throughout, allowing
european broadcasters to originate in 50p, but also allowing european
networks to screen 24p, 30p, and 60i material without conversion.

Or maybe standards conversion technology will become so good that it
won't matter?

Cheers,
David.
 




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