Is this legal?

"Paul Hyett" wrote in message
...
This is on aspect of culture that is completely opposite between America
& Britain.

The American attitude seems to be : sell what you like & let the market
(or a jury) decide, whereas in Britain it's : sell nothing that can
potentially help criminals, and civil liberties can get ****ed.

Yes, this is quite true which often results with silly cases being
determined by jury, like the famous hot coffee case (and also hot apple pie
case).

I heard that writing a cheque which bounches in America is against the law.
And that is how it should be.

In uk.media.tv.sky on Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Gordon Brown wrote :

The American attitude seems to be : sell what you like & let the market
(or a jury) decide, whereas in Britain it's : sell nothing that can
potentially help criminals, and civil liberties can get ****ed.

Yes, this is quite true which often results with silly cases being
determined by jury, like the famous hot coffee case (and also hot apple pie
case).

I heard that writing a cheque which bounches in America is against the law.
And that is how it should be.

It might not be your fault though - what if a computer glitch prevents
your salary being paid in...
--
Paul 'US Sitcom Fan' Hyett

loz wrote:

You seem to be confusing fake auctions with Paypal

How is paypal flawed if someone didn't send you the goods? That isn't paypals
fault.

No, but it is PayPal's responsibility to ensure that payments can be
traced and can be refunded. This is what they don't do, and also
PayPal neatly makes vendors anonymous and address-less to the buyer,
the tax man, the VAT-man and the police. This is clearly why many
people opt for "'PayPal only" auctions. In fact I'm a little surprised
that PayPal doesn't fall foul of the money laundering regulations.


I could say the same about any e-commerce, telesales, or door to door
salesperson.
If they don't deliver the goods it is hardly the fault of the credit card
company is it?

Well, yes it is. This is precisely what UK consumer credit law
provides for and is precisely what PayPal doesn't provide for, though
they are quite happy to take a hefty commission on sales in return for
no real guarantees.

Also the banks and credit card companies are far more serious and
helpful when problems arise. PayPal are neither serious nor helpful
and this was covered on a recent Watchdog programme.


Paypal know exactly what bank account they paid your money too.
And the bank should know (especially now) exactly who's account it is.

Yes, but you still rely on PayPal giving out the info in the first
place (which they may not do), and that the vendor is still using the
bank account at that time. This is not a problem with credit cards and
is less of a problem if you have sent a cheque directly to a known
address.

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy
How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/
BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

Gordon Brown wrote:

Another problem is that to trace the vendor you must rely on PayPal.
They do not go out of their way to help. In fact they go out of their
way not to help.

Agreed on this point, PayPal is not very helpful at all, but could this
because of the Data Protection Act? I mean if the Police could not keep
records (or disclose them as in a recent famous case with a caretaker...)?

Money laundering regulations supposedly require that addresses and
identities are confirmed by bodies that transfer funds. For some
reason this doesn't seem to apply to PayPal to any great extent. I
don't know to what extent other laws prevent PayPal from releasing
information but the point is not why they are slow to do it but that
they are slow to do it. This bothers me.


If you have sent a cheque then it can be traced, as can the address to
which it has been sent. PayPal is largely nameless and address-less.

While this statement is true, the fact of the matter is you can always get
the address of the buyer/seller from Ebay. After all, what is the point for
buyer to make a purchase and a payment supplying a fake address? How would
the buyer receive the goods (even if they are using a fake CC)? Of course
this may be a slightly different case for a fake seller as they may have
registered a fake address with Ebay.

This of course was my point. Buyers would always give valid details.
Crooked vendors would be interested in anonymity.


However if their listing permits
cheques then there is a good probability that the address is real - watch
out for PayPal only listings.

Which was exactly what I said in my first post on the matter.


If you have paid by CC then you need merely initiate a chargeback, and
if that fails then the CC company will absorb the loss anyway.

This could still be the case if you pay for goods with your CC via PayPal. I
do not see why the CC could not make a chargeback in the same way if you had
paid the merchant directly via telephone. Not tried this myself (had no need
thus far).

This is the problem. When this happens (and it does happen) PayPal
usually attempt to show that they have performed their part of the
bargain (receive cash and transfer to third party) and so the CC
company has no cause to proceed with the chargeback. That the vendor
hasn't done his bit is neither here nor there under law as that is
another transaction. And this is why PayPal should be obliged to
accept full responsibility for purchases and should provide full
refunds when things go wrong. They do charge a hefty fee after all.
Let them do something for this.


If all else fails use the Ebay Buyer protection scheme although you will
lose the initial £15 (admin fee?) and also you can only claim to a maximum
value of £120.

If indeed they pay out anything at all. There is a lot of small print
and they have the final say.
I have no faith whatsoever in the current system.

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy
How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/
BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

loz wrote:

In the case of CC fraud there is some comeback on the fraudster and he
can be traced directly by the banks.

This is not possible with PayPal.

Why isn't it possible?

As I said before, Paypal operates within the same financial system as the CC.
Paypal transfer money into the sellers bank account.
So the bank can trace them directly in just the same way

No, the banks can't trace anything at all. Only PayPal know how the
payments move about. This is the problem: banks are heavily regulated
and are serious organisations. PayPal is neither.

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy
How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/
BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

K wrote:

Sorry I was mistaken. I realized as soon as I'd posted it and thought
I'd cancelled the usenet message but it obviously didn't work!

Your cancel probably did propagate but my server doesn't honour
cancels so I would always see your message.

--
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/yvnsy
How to get UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
Fed up with logos / red buttons? : http://logofreetv.org/
BBC gone? : http://www.astra2d.co.uk/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:13:06 -0000, "Gordon Brown" . wrote:

I heard that writing a cheque which bounches in America is against the law.
And that is how it should be.

In France if you write bad cheques you get blacklisted by the Banque de France &
cannot hold a bank account until your debts are cleared. So a cheque is like
cash which is why there is no need for cheque guarantee cards although normally
you are asked for your ID card.

--
Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur

"Jomtien" wrote in message
...
loz wrote:

In the case of CC fraud there is some comeback on the fraudster and he
can be traced directly by the banks.

This is not possible with PayPal.

Why isn't it possible?

As I said before, Paypal operates within the same financial system as the CC.
Paypal transfer money into the sellers bank account.
So the bank can trace them directly in just the same way

No, the banks can't trace anything at all. Only PayPal know how the
payments move about. This is the problem: banks are heavily regulated
and are serious organisations. PayPal is neither.

The bank knows it got a transfer from PayPal
The bank knows who's account it is transfered into

If the police want to trace some fraudelent activity via paypal I cant see the
problem
Unless paypal are deliberately uncooperative and destroy their records

Loz

"Jomtien" wrote in message
news
Gordon Brown wrote:

Another problem is that to trace the vendor you must rely on PayPal.
They do not go out of their way to help. In fact they go out of their
way not to help.

Agreed on this point, PayPal is not very helpful at all, but could this
because of the Data Protection Act? I mean if the Police could not keep
records (or disclose them as in a recent famous case with a caretaker...)?

Money laundering regulations supposedly require that addresses and
identities are confirmed by bodies that transfer funds. For some
reason this doesn't seem to apply to PayPal to any great extent. I
don't know to what extent other laws prevent PayPal from releasing
information but the point is not why they are slow to do it but that
they are slow to do it. This bothers me.

PayPal UK is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority as an
Electronic Money Institution.
Quote from FSA
"E-money issuers must have sound and prudent systems and adequate internal
control mechanisms and must comply with the FSA's money laundering
requirements."

Loz

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 06:58:50 GMT, Jomtien wrote:

No, but it is PayPal's responsibility to ensure that payments can be
traced and can be refunded. This is what they don't do, and also
PayPal neatly makes vendors anonymous and address-less to the buyer,
the tax man, the VAT-man and the police.

Have you ever actually used PayPal?