New Tivo announcement that will allow Tivo to save shows to PCs !

Brad Templeton wrote:
Note that the MPAA considers DVDxcopy illegal under the DMCA, and is
trying to shut it down.

This whole thing about extraction is not that big of a deal. I just ran
a few cables from the TiVo over to the computer. Grabbed in what I
wanted witha DV/Analaog converter, and made a DVD. Looks fantastic! So
it's not the digital file sitting on the TiVo? So what? This way works
just fine and I can do it now without hacking the TiVo.

In article et,
Steve K. wrote:
Brad Templeton wrote:
Note that the MPAA considers DVDxcopy illegal under the DMCA, and is
trying to shut it down.

This whole thing about extraction is not that big of a deal. I just ran
a few cables from the TiVo over to the computer. Grabbed in what I
wanted witha DV/Analaog converter, and made a DVD. Looks fantastic! So
it's not the digital file sitting on the TiVo? So what? This way works
just fine and I can do it now without hacking the TiVo.

Indeed. Usually that capture card in your computer could have recorded
it right off the air too, for even better quality. The method you
specify involves the risk of "transcoding" -- two different compression
sessions on the same data, adding the aliasing of both to the result.
It is not as good, which does not mean to say it's always horrible, but
it's a loss of quality for no good reason.

It's also a pain to do what you just described, and must be done in
real-time -- hour show takes an hour to copy.

They like this of course, they want it to be harder and lower quality.
We, on the other hand, would like the convenience of just saying
"copy that file on my disk to another disk" which is really all that
should be going on.

The sad part is it saves them nothing, since what you describe is
possible, and while it does have the quality reduction, if you were of
a mind to give the show away free, you could put your copy on Kazaa and
soon there would be thousands of people. Only one person has to do it.


Their plan, by the way, is to get a law in place so that all capture
cards will be required to look for a "watermark" in the analog video and
audio streams, and refuse to digitize anything with a watermark that
says no.

Failing getting a law, they have a backup plan to encrypt all data and
refuse to licence the decryptor to anybody who won't put the watermark
detector into all their analog equipment.
--
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(Brad Templeton) wrote:
In article ,
Phil Leonard wrote:
http://www.dvdxcopy.com/

And yes -- I can't see what would stop you from ripping back
the DVD you just burned.

And THAT is just how easy it will be to "work around" the "protection" of
keeping these files off of the Internet. All that will be for us users is a
hassle. And I've been jumping to this conclusion in my discussions here, that

Indeed. Actually, unless they CSS encode the DVDs, it may be even
easier than that.

To prevent the possibility of a bit-for-bit copy of a retail DVD,
DVD-Rs don't support CSS. DVD-Rs aren't recordable on the area of the
disc that would be used to store the CSS keys.

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(i)+32));/script

"Scott Seligman" wrote
To prevent the possibility of a bit-for-bit copy of a retail DVD,
DVD-Rs don't support CSS. DVD-Rs aren't recordable on the area of the
disc that would be used to store the CSS keys.

So, DVD X Copy works by not copying those keys, which
then makes the copy completely un-copy-protected?

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In article ,
Phil Leonard wrote:
In article ID , Rich Carreiro
writes:
Given the presence of the dongle, I'm going to bet that the file
pulled to the PC from the Tivo is encrypted with a code unique to your
Tivo account, which is why the dongle is needed (the decrypt key will
be on the dongle). And that's why WinDVD or Media Player 9 will be
unable to play it w/o the dongle.

This is where I think there is some confusion. Once that mpeg file is
decrypted with a key, it should be playable with any player. If you take any
DVD and take the mpg out (just copy it to the HDD and play it,) it is playable
with any DVD player program. I think the "key" simply allows you to decrypt
the previously encrypted mpeg residing on the TiVo. Especially since there is
already a hack for the TiVo S1 that already does this. The "key" just limits
the ability to decrypt to paying customers.

Video on the TiVo isn't encrypted. It's just stored in a non-standard
format (one that allows faster seeking/searching than a standard MPEG-2
program stream). The software TiVo is providing to rip from a Series 2 TiVo
might encrypt the ripped video, but that's done outside the TiVo.

_/_ Scott Alfter (address in header doesn't receive mail)
/ v \ send mail to
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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In article ,
Brad Templeton wrote:
In article ,
Phil Leonard wrote:
http://www.dvdxcopy.com/
And yes -- I can't see what would stop you from ripping back
the DVD you just burned.

And THAT is just how easy it will be to "work around" the "protection" of
keeping these files off of the Internet. All that will be for us users is a
hassle. And I've been jumping to this conclusion in my discussions here, that

Indeed. Actually, unless they CSS encode the DVDs, it may be even
easier than that.

They can't do that, as most people don't have Authoring DVD burners. Those
are the big-$$$ burners used by the pros. General DVD burners (the type
you'll find on the shelf at Fry's (or whatever) for $200 or less) can't burn
discs with CSS. The area on a General DVD-R blank where the CSS information
would go is not available.

_/_ Scott Alfter (address in header doesn't receive mail)
/ v \ send mail to
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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"Scott Alfter" wrote
Video on the TiVo isn't encrypted. It's just stored in a non-standard
format (one that allows faster seeking/searching than a standard MPEG-2
program stream).
[snip]

It's been implied here that ReplayTV does store in a standard MPEG2
format. Well, at least one that is somehow easier to use when extracting
the video from the drive directly. What's going on there? Does TiVo
seek/search recorded material faster than ReplayTV?

Bao H. Lammy ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
"Scott Seligman" wrote
To prevent the possibility of a bit-for-bit copy of a retail DVD,
DVD-Rs don't support CSS. DVD-Rs aren't recordable on the area of the
disc that would be used to store the CSS keys.

So, DVD X Copy works by not copying those keys, which
then makes the copy completely un-copy-protected?

Correct, *if* the source is a single layer disc (or you cut down the
content you copy until it fits in a single layer). Doing this, you get
essentially bit-for-bit copies after CSS decryption.

--
Jeff Rife | "You are now dead. Thank you for using Stop and
For address harvesters: | Drop, America's favorite Suicide Booth since
| 2008."
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|

In article ,
Scott Seligman wrote:
(Brad Templeton) wrote:
In article ,
Phil Leonard wrote:
http://www.dvdxcopy.com/

And yes -- I can't see what would stop you from ripping back
the DVD you just burned.

And THAT is just how easy it will be to "work around" the "protection" of
keeping these files off of the Internet. All that will be for us users is a
hassle. And I've been jumping to this conclusion in my discussions here, that

Indeed. Actually, unless they CSS encode the DVDs, it may be even
easier than that.

To prevent the possibility of a bit-for-bit copy of a retail DVD,
DVD-Rs don't support CSS. DVD-Rs aren't recordable on the area of the
disc that would be used to store the CSS keys.

If that's the case, then this becomes even more bizarre. The new
product would in theory then let you burn an unencrypted mp2 to the DVD-/+R,
which is what it needs to burn (or mp1) if you want to be able to play
back in ordinary players, and then read back that plain file from this
non-CSS DVD.

And even though you can do that, the first copy you get has to have
a dongle to play? This makes less sense than before. Ok, it's a
pain to have to burn and re-read, but that's not going to impede anybody
who really wants the full video. Dongles were (mostly) abandoned by
commercial software vendors as not worth the support cost, but at least
they did something, in theory, for their piracy fears.
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Brad Templeton wrote:
Indeed. Usually that capture card in your computer could have recorded
it right off the air too, for even better quality.
Well it's a DirecTiVo so it couldn't.

The method you specify involves the risk of "transcoding" -- two different compression
sessions on the same data, adding the aliasing of both to the result.
It is not as good, which does not mean to say it's always horrible, but
it's a loss of quality for no good reason.
Well it sure is easy and still looks quite good. I mean, it's only NTSC
TV , not HD or anything. I've seen some purchased DVD's of features
that look worse.

It's also a pain to do what you just described, and must be done in
real-time -- hour show takes an hour to copy.
Sure...real time. But a half hour show is only 22 minutes. And if it's
a half hour show on MTV, it's more like 15 minutes. So real time...big
deal!

The sad part is it saves them nothing, since what you describe is
possible, and while it does have the quality reduction, if you were of
a mind to give the show away free, you could put your copy on Kazaa and
soon there would be thousands of people. Only one person has to do it.
Sure, but I am not a pirate. I still pay for my music at the store on
CD's and the DVD I made is only for myself. I'll probably even buy a
copy of the shows I made if they ever come out on DVD. I must be one of
the few people left who believe in supporting things I like.

Their plan, by the way, is to get a law in place so that all capture
cards will be required to look for a "watermark" in the analog video and
audio streams, and refuse to digitize anything with a watermark that
says no.

Failing getting a law, they have a backup plan to encrypt all data and
refuse to licence the decryptor to anybody who won't put the watermark
detector into all their analog equipment.
I doubt this will ever happen. Maybe with digital TV but not for
analog. Analog is dead anyway.

You make some great points Brad. Maybe at some point it really won't be
an issue. I'm just saying, with all the "hoopla" over TiVo extraction
and fighting "the man" right now, you can pretty much make yourself a
nice qulaity DVD now without a lot of fuss. Now I can watch it anytime
and since it's DVD...any place!