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Zetag Kinima KC-3 - Any opinions



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 29th 04, 05:46 AM
Anil Asher
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Default Zetag Kinima KC-3 - Any opinions

Found this on ebay, a brand new Zetag Kinima KC-3 center speaker and
bought it based on the website specs and review links from there.
After I bought them I checked the newsgroups and found nothing about
this brand or model. I did figure out that the company went out of
business and closed down, it's a good product but not at the MSRP -
maybe that's why.

I like the sound and it does a good job as a center running off an
Arcam A/V processor and coupled with an older pair of Linn Index's as
fronts.

The recommended 100 hour run in isn't up yet but the dialog is crisp
and clear, I'm hoping to hear better sound as time goes by.

Anyway the point of this post is to get some feedback from all you
home theatre guru's out there if you have heard of the Zetag Kinima?

Here's a ling to there website http://www.zetagcorp.com/
  #2  
Old August 27th 04, 07:12 AM
dogcow57
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Hi,
You've probably recieved one of the finest CC's for the price.
The quality of the Kinama line for the price was far beyond the typical
store bought speaker system.
The company did go out of business, not because of product fault but
management pillage.
I'm sure you'll be quite pleased with the Kinama line.
Right now on Ebay there are a pair of HI G-3's that would match your
Center Channel perfectly since they are also 6.5 woofers, with the same
tweeter.
It's a shame the company was shut down. They were small but the big boys
did not like them because of the quality of the product they produced for
the price.
Good luck with your future systems. Audio is a crazy world.


  #3  
Old September 16th 04, 05:01 AM
Alvaius
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Well, contrary to the other poster, I believe the reason that Kinima did
not do very well was that the product frankly was not that good. Let me
tell you my experience....

I purchased a pair of HI-G4 and KC-3 center channel when the factory was
blowing them out towards the end. It seemed like a good price and
unfortunately I did not listen as long (or with my music) as I should
have.

I got them home, and started the break in. The sound was good to very good
on some material, but for other material, it was just not that great.
Specifically female vocals were shrill. Well I broke them in for a good
200-300 hours and still no real improvement. I know enough about speakers
to know that they should have got better.

Well after a while I contacted Kinima (the main guy, Graham), and was told
to be patient, the speaker (and that Cardas wire), takes a long time to
break in. Well I am an engineer and I know that the break in of wire was
not the reason for the significant sound problems these speakers had. So,
I grabbed the old PC, some software, and a mike and ran some curves....
and well, there was the problem.. there was signifant problems with the
response.

So I contact Zetag, take them back, they take them apart, declare nothing
really wrong, except a loose screw or two (supposedly they had substituted
them..).

Well I got them back, and still no good. They miserably failed the Abba
test (if you want to know what that is, play Abba on a bad set of
speakers!).

So I pull out the test equipment and take some time and do a proper test!
Well the response is still crap. So, I take them apart and look at the
cross-over and start measuring components..... and what do I find....

1) The cross-over was set to about 1,800 Hz for the lower woofer, and
3,000Hz for the upper woofer to the tweeter. Well that 1,800 Hz lower
cross over sure told me why certain sounds did not localize very well. Oh,
that 3Khz, that is pretty darn high for an 8" woofer to go. That also
explains why male voices were a bit boomy.

2) THERE WAS NO ZOBEL! That's right, no ZOBEL to correct the impedance of
the woofer. So I should clarify, the design above was for about 1,800 and
3,000, but because of the lack of the Zobel, the woofers really did not
roll off till much higher.

3) The CAPs may have been good quality, but the inductors were cheap.

Oh, and that break-in on the Cardas wire. Graham was nice enough to
essentially blame the wire for the poor sound during the break in. I
actually contacted Cardas (yes, Mr. Cardas!), and he said there was no way
the wire would create that much trouble.

4) The biggest problems, though, are the metal cones. Metal cones can
sound very nice, but the actually do not like to go to high frequencies.
When you push a metal cone beyond its range, it breaks up and you get wild
frequency response fluctuations and large peaks. Guess what, without that
Zobel, these things were flapping in the wind, and that is literally.

5) The G4 uses a convex hard plastic dust cover. This is a no-no and
generates a frequency response peak, one that the crossover does not
tame.

Oh, and the terminals are crap for the supposed selling price.

SO... what did I do with them. Well there was some good things... the
woofers, and the tweeters have about the flattest impedance curves I have
ever seen. The frequency response is quite flat for the drivers and the
cabinets are nice.

After many sets of measurements, I designed a new 2nd order cross-over
with a proper zobel and a notch filter to take out the nasty peak of the
cone breakup. I could have gone higher order, but this gave a better
frequency response and phase response. I lowered the tweeter to upper
woofer cross-over frequency to also give the woofer a better operating
range and widen the sound stage. I lowered the lower woofer crossover
considerably and used it for baffle step compensation as is more normal in
a 2 1/2 way and I improved the dampening. Cross-overs were built with far
better inductors.

The result is very pleasant, and not considering my time, they are still a
good value. However, unless you want to do what I did.... save your
money!

p.s. I never could get a frequency response graph for any Kinima speaker.
I am guessing the HI-G1 is not bad as the cone is carbon-fiber (very good
material), however, the rest, given the cross-overs, are likely not good.
I also measured an HI-G3 quickly in the factory and it exhibited the same
problem.

J

  #4  
Old September 28th 04, 04:10 AM
vaughn2004
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Although you opionion is greatly appreciated remember that satisfaction to
ones ears are in the person listening to the music.
To most people I feel that the Kinima line of speakers generated
satisfaction in their listening pleasure.
I've read many reviews and none that I saw were negative. Or and least
very few were.
I believe that Graham was not 'blaming' Cardas for the sound. He held
great respect for George Cardas, that's why he used his wire.
Tweaking is something all of us DIY'ers love to do with thier speaker
systems. May I ask what your final choice of a crossover was?
I know that Graham did not like Zobel's. He felt it sucked to much of the
sound out of the music. Being English he like's his 'high's'. Maybe you
don't?
What are you running the G4's with? What kind of speaker wire are you
using?
Did you fill the lower cavity with some damping material.
A half and half mixture (about 25lbs) of 30grit steel sandblasting shot
and 30 mesh Nepheline Syenite? The two compounds mix together and create a
very compact form that stiffens up the baffle and stops any 'ringing' that
ABBA may have generated. Abba, really.............:-)
I preferr Pink Floyd, very loud, but then again I like Jazz or most
anything except country.


  #5  
Old September 28th 04, 04:10 AM
vaughn2004
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Default

Although you opionion is greatly appreciated remember that satisfaction to
ones ears are in the person listening to the music.
To most people I feel that the Kinima line of speakers generated
satisfaction in their listening pleasure.
I've read many reviews and none that I saw were negative. Or and least
very few were.
I believe that Graham was not 'blaming' Cardas for the sound. He held
great respect for George Cardas, that's why he used his wire.
Tweaking is something all of us DIY'ers love to do with thier speaker
systems. May I ask what your final choice of a crossover was?
I know that Graham did not like Zobel's. He felt it sucked to much of the
sound out of the music. Being English he like's his 'high's'. Maybe you
don't?
What are you running the G4's with? What kind of speaker wire are you
using?
Did you fill the lower cavity with some damping material.
A half and half mixture (about 25lbs) of 30grit steel sandblasting shot
and 30 mesh Nepheline Syenite? The two compounds mix together and create a
very compact form that stiffens up the baffle and stops any 'ringing' that
ABBA may have generated. Abba, really.............:-)
I preferr Pink Floyd, very loud, but then again I like Jazz or most
anything except country.


  #6  
Old December 31st 04, 08:30 AM
Alvaius
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I am sorry for my late response. I have not had much time to be "on-line"
So to respond.....

- I am using a similar damping concoction to what you list. I can't
remember exactly what it was, but is it a combination of cracked steel and
Nepheline I believe. It was exactly as Graham specified and from exactly
where he specified I buy it.

- There are actually few professional published reviews of Kinima
speakers. I have found one or two. None are on the G4 which has the most
problematic woofer design. The problem on the speaker is two fold. One is
the cross-over. The other is the solid plastic convex dust cap. This is
known to create frequency peaks. That is why most modern speakers use
either a phase-plug or soft dust cap. If a hard dust cap is used, they are
concave.

- Even my wife knew there was something wrong with the sound. I personally
like British speakers as well and like my highs. As much of the lower
highs on this speaker were being created by a distorting metal cone in
break-up and by a concex plastic dust cap, the highs in certain frequency
bands were not great.

- In terms of sucking life, perhaps Graham has confused the Zobel in an
amplifier with the ones in speakers? Given that a woofers impedance
increases with frequency (simple physical fact, it is an inductor), it is
almost impossible to make a cross-over for a woofer work without a zobel.
Given this speakers response issues, there was no way around it.

- I did go with a zobel as stated which made a huge difference. I also
added a trap for the woofer breakup. It is pretty mild. I personally like
it as well as my "listening" audience.

- G4 is being run currently with a Classe SSP-60 Pre-Processor fed from a
Denon DVD-5900. The amplifier is a custom Class-A solid state. I also have
a modified SIM3050, but the other amp is much better. Speakers are
bi-wired using custom built wire consisting of strips of flat wire from
Alpha-Core inductors. I find this wire works as well as wires costing
hundreds of dollars (some think even better).

- However, the initial problems of this speaker were so bad that I think
the differences would have been noticable with a cheap AV receiver and 18
guage zip cord.

- I will restate, I think the drivers had excellent potential and as long
as the music did not task them, they sounded pretty good unmodified.
Surprisingly, jazz (no vocals) sounded quite good. However, more complex
sounds and a good vocalist with a lot of range sounded painful. In that
space, I will put Pink Floyd. The choir in Another Brick in the Wall Part.
2 is infinitely better since the modification.

- The G4 will have the worst problem. G3-KC3 will be next. G2 will have
even less issues. I understand the G1 does quite well but it does not have
a metal woofer. I believe it is a carbon fiber and likely has very
controlled drop off.

Alvaius

  #7  
Old July 26th 15, 06:54 PM posted to alt.home-theater.misc
[email protected]
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Posts: 1
Default Zetag Kinima KC-3 - Any opinions

On Monday, 28 June 2004 23:46:01 UTC-4, Anil Asher wrote:
Found this on ebay, a brand new Zetag Kinima KC-3 center speaker and
bought it based on the website specs and review links from there.
After I bought them I checked the newsgroups and found nothing about
this brand or model. I did figure out that the company went out of
business and closed down, it's a good product but not at the MSRP -
maybe that's why.

I like the sound and it does a good job as a center running off an
Arcam A/V processor and coupled with an older pair of Linn Index's as
fronts.

The recommended 100 hour run in isn't up yet but the dialog is crisp
and clear, I'm hoping to hear better sound as time goes by.

Anyway the point of this post is to get some feedback from all you
home theatre guru's out there if you have heard of the Zetag Kinima?

Here's a ling to there website http://www.zetagcorp.com/




I know this is so long after the original post, but I actually know a few people who worked within that company, and they now are in possession of the last inventory supply. the raw speakers, still in box brand new.

all available except the coppers now. http://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details....dId=1061675110 at least 12 of ea. and 20+ tweeters.
 




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