Buying a subwoofer from abroad unheard (serious post)

Nath wrote:

How is it my loss? It'd be a bigger loss to buy an SVS or Outlaw unheard
only to discover I don't like it. Surely even you can see that?


Yes I can. But sometimes you have to take a risk. OK it may pay off, it may
not. It it does you'll have a huge upgrade. If not sell it off a loose a
hundred quid.

Why lose a hundred quid when I can go to a local dealer, demo a really
excellent sub and be happy with my purchase? What's the point? All I
want is a subwoofer, not a gamble.


If you saw a brand new, with warranty Velodyne HGS-18 for £1000, but on one
condition you couldn't demo it. Would you buy it?


Of course not. If i can't demo it I can't even verify that it works.
Maybe you can chuck £1000 down the drain Nathan (though I doubt it) but
I can't - no matter what you think. I wouldn't buy AV unseen or unheard
- it doesn't make sense. Plus the HGS-18 is not likely to be suited to
my system - massive overkill - nor would I spend £1k on a sub pure and
simple.

Surely one of the world's best subs doesn't need any second-doubting it's
performance, and whether it's worth it if you have a lesser sub (ie Rel
Q150)


Doesn't matter how good it is - unless I can hear it I wont buy it. It
could be the best sub of all time but that doesn't mean it will fit in
every system. surely even you understand something of system matching?

Perhaps if you weren't such a **** someone would invite you round to demo a
SVS

I'd be more likey to shove your stupid weedy head into one of the ports
especially if you called me a **** to my face.


Quite a few people have SVS's on avforums.. loads on home theatre forum, and
avsforum. Why not read up on some comments first? Surely if there are 100+
comments from owners of (your) sub to a a better SVS or whatever, this at
least will help with your decision.


They are stil only comments. A lot of those comments come from what I
call "bass heads". To me bass is little more than a component of the
music. I listen to systems with *my own* ears. Not those of "my dealer",
not those of people who post to SVS forums or Outlaw forums or anywhere
else.
Music and AV is a personal experience. I'm not building a system so that
I can brag about it on UMHC, I'm building a system to watch and enjoy
movies on. Therefore the most important opinion on how it *should* sound
is *mine*. I'm sure the SVS is a gran sub, I'll wager the Outlaw is
every bit as good as it and I'm certain there are subs slightly cheaper
that are 'better' and subs more expensive that are 'worse'. It's
irrelevant if I can't demo it.


So I'll assume you've lied about using a Mac (you're just trolling - I
doubt anyone who top-poste duntil January 2003 would ever have used a
Mac) just as you've lied about seeing an Apex DVD player catch fire and
you lied about not going to Acoustica in Chester.

If you didn't lie so much, people would pay more attention to the things
you *do* say that are interesting.


--
Patrick

"De-Correction is one of the THX mumbo jumbo thingy mi jig, as will as
tonal correction, bass management, Re-Eq.
Checkout the THX site" an AV 'expert', yesterday.

http://www.patrick.navin.btinternet.co.uk/B834763868/

Why lose a hundred quid when I can go to a local dealer, demo a really
excellent sub and be happy with my purchase? What's the point? All I
want is a subwoofer, not a gamble.

SVS might be setting up a UK distributor sometime. However prices will
increase.

You will pay for the middle man, RRP, and the companies marketing. Jag is
buying a SVS 20-39 PCi- costing £550. Or he could have bought a Rel Q150E
for the same amount. I know which one I'll go for.

Arguing about it's not gonna change anything. Either buy a sub from a store-
or buy direct. I can only help you with some idea's on model/range. Tom from
SVS is very helpful - give him a email.


Of course not. If i can't demo it I can't even verify that it works.
Maybe you can chuck £1000 down the drain Nathan (though I doubt it) but
I can't - no matter what you think. I wouldn't buy AV unseen or unheard
- it doesn't make sense. Plus the HGS-18 is not likely to be suited to
my system - massive overkill - nor would I spend £1k on a sub pure and
simple.

Even if the HGS-18 was from your local hifi shop, brand new, working, with
full warranty? Basically they were giving it away- you would still not
consider it?

No I don't throw away money either. Unless you're willing to take a chance-
you won't get bargains on gear.

People are using SVS and some Velo HGS subwoofers with Anthony Gallo
speakers (avforums) OK it might be overkill, and HGS RRP is pricey.. but
regardless people are still using subs that are of much higher quality
bracket than the rest of the system.

Doesn't matter how good it is - unless I can hear it I wont buy it. It
could be the best sub of all time but that doesn't mean it will fit in
every system. surely even you understand something of system matching?

Yes.. that's why I'm unsure of buying a multi-channel poweramp from
Outlaw/ATI. System matching is important for amplifier's & speakers. But is
it the same for subwoofers?- I mean one person might like a bright sounding
amp, another soft. And depends on what processor & speakers they have. A
Audiolab poweramp works well with certain speakers, and doesn't with some
others.

But a subwoofer basically should be - Fast, loud, not boomy, low distortion,
good build, low port noise, flat between xxhz-80/120hz, good price. That's
about it I think.

They are stil only comments. A lot of those comments come from what I
call "bass heads". To me bass is little more than a component of the
music. I listen to systems with *my own* ears. Not those of "my dealer",
not those of people who post to SVS forums or Outlaw forums or anywhere
else.

Yeah I can understand where you're coming from. I was cautious of some posts
on the american forums. But once a few UK customers bought a couple and then
compared them to similar priced (and more expensive) subs I roughly got some
more trustworthy comments. Comments comparing Rel Storm, Velodyne CHT-15,
Paradigm Servo 15. HGS line.


Music and AV is a personal experience. I'm not building a system so that
I can brag about it on UMHC, I'm building a system to watch and enjoy
movies on. Therefore the most important opinion on how it *should* sound
is *mine*. I'm sure the SVS is a gran sub, I'll wager the Outlaw is
every bit as good as it and I'm certain there are subs slightly cheaper
that are 'better' and subs more expensive that are 'worse'. It's
irrelevant if I can't demo it.

Fair enough. See first reply.

However the Outlaw sub is (25hz?) tune.. therefore a SVS 16hz model will go
lower. Don't know of SPL output and other things obviously.

There's a thread on home theatre forum, with waterfall charts. Search for
mingl. Excellent.. it gives you idea on average low frequency (made me
decide on the certain port tune)

So I'll assume you've lied about using a Mac (you're just trolling - I
doubt anyone who top-poste duntil January 2003 would ever have used a
Mac) just as you've lied about seeing an Apex DVD player catch fire and
you lied about not going to Acoustica in Chester.

Yes I've used Mac's. It's been years since I've shopped at Acoustica. You
really expect me to remember that?

Nath wrote:



Yes I've used Mac's. It's been years since I've shopped at Acoustica. You
really expect me to remember that?



A good, sensible response about the subs, much appreciated. I'm still at
a loss as to why you reduse to explain what it is about Macs you don't
like? Give me some specifics because I genuinely believe that someone
who's clearly as interested in quality as you would not have major
issues with a Mac, in fact I'd expect you to prefer it.

So which version of Mac OS did you try? when was this? What were you
trying to achieve on the Mac that you couldn't?


--
Patrick

"De-Correction is one of the THX mumbo jumbo thingy mi jig, as will as
tonal correction, bass management, Re-Eq.
Checkout the THX site" an AV 'expert', yesterday.

http://www.patrick.navin.btinternet.co.uk/B834763868/

A good, sensible response about the subs, much appreciated. I'm still at
a loss as to why you reduse to explain what it is about Macs you don't
like? Give me some specifics because I genuinely believe that someone
who's clearly as interested in quality as you would not have major
issues with a Mac, in fact I'd expect you to prefer it.

These are my opinion's/experiences...either with the one I was dealing with-
or the few working Mac's in the office.

Physical design- not bothered what my computer looks like. I don't want to
pay extra for fancy case/monitor.
Bundled mouse- small round thing that gave me cramps after 20 minutes. I
don't think a PC USB mouse worked. I had to use the Mac mouse :-( The Mac
lacked right-click so shortcuts like copy/paste had to be done by other
means. Takes longer to do stuff that way.
Monitor arrived dead.
Apple sent us a partially working keyboard. Some keys worked, some others
outputted something completely different (ie type S and P comes up) This
was a urgent order for a client.
Problems with USB- a standard PC USB keyboard didn't work. We had to use
another working Mac keyboard. Gave me cramps.
Supplied keyboard was worse than a laptop's- tiny with no feel to it. A £10
PC keyboard can take some bashing.
OS arrived messed up- straight away had to re-install.
Multi-tasking- the Mac/OS I was using (can't remember) possibly a G3 or G4
Mac. I was using Photoshop to process a image. Whilst this was doing it's
stuff- I couldn't select another app- ie Notepad equalivant. Had to wait
until Photoshop finished the process.
Video card died- had to replace with a PC ATI video card.
CD drive failed with Photoshop disc inside. Whole unit had to be returned
for repair urgently- couldn't eject the disc by either trash can, or the
keyboard press, or using the pin hole. No eject button like a normal CD-ROM.
Had to rip the tray out to get the CD.
Basically after that experience (and after contacting Apple) we dropped
supplying Mac's - we did think of replacing all PC's with Mac's. Not after
that we didn't. Only the design department were allowed Mac's.
Games support.
Ability to tweak the system. Can't install a custom OS (like Windows, Linux
etc)
Supplied HD died a few hours after switch-on - a Fujitsu..
Couldn't get a external SCSI CD Writer to work on any Mac in the art
department. I asked the Mac techie to help- he couldn't get it working
either. The Mac users were pretty experienced, and mystified of this.
Another indentical SCSI box worked only on the PC's. These were bought in
for the Mac's, to backup data. Some other SCSI devices worked fine with both
PC & Mac (SCSI scanner)

Yet the CD writer boxes worked fine on several PC's. Basically we tried to
track down why it didn't work. Couldn't find the problem. Instead left that
SCSI box connected to the one PC in their office.

After using them for a while I refused to deal with them. I was ****ed off
with them, my fingers and wrists ached. My manager agreed.


So which version of Mac OS did you try? when was this? What were you
trying to achieve on the Mac that you couldn't?

I honestly can't remember.
I guess for computer newbie's a Mac is OK. I didn't like it.

If you have c.£500 and want the best sub that money can buy, why not
simply hold out for a second hand SVS or Velodyne CHT-15? They come up
regularly and are rarely more than 6 to 9 months old.

In the case of the Velodyne you have no worries with transformers and
CE certification and you're ready to safely plug and play.

With SVS, you know some other poor soul's done all the importing
legwork for you.

"AVTalk.co.uk" wrote in message
m...
If you have c.£500 and want the best sub that money can buy, why not
simply hold out for a second hand SVS or Velodyne CHT-15? They come up
regularly and are rarely more than 6 to 9 months old.

In the case of the Velodyne you have no worries with transformers and
CE certification and you're ready to safely plug and play.

With SVS, you know some other poor soul's done all the importing
legwork for you.

No transformer is needed with a SVS subwoofer. They change the voltage
jumper inside the amp module at the factory.

Importing a SVS was hardly difficult. Probably as much work as ordering a
DVD. Then phoning up Bax once to arrange a delivery date. Then pay import &
duty.

I hate paperwork- and this was no bother at all. Just sign it and that's it.

Apparently a couple of people on avforums have compared the CHT-15 and the
20-39 PC Plus. I can't browse avforums anymore, but I understand it one
person (just before I was blocked) was considering changing his CHT-15 for a
SVS.

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:36:46 +0000, Patrick Navin
wrote:


A good, sensible response about the subs, much appreciated. I'm still at
a loss as to why you reduse to explain what it is about Macs you don't
like? Give me some specifics because I genuinely believe that someone
who's clearly as interested in quality as you would not have major
issues with a Mac, in fact I'd expect you to prefer it.

Personally I hate that bloody stupid single button mouse. Having grown up with
proper Motif VMS & UNIX workstations that have 3 buttons & now that I also use a
nice cordless scroll mouse on my PC I can't believe the Apple thing is so
primitive.

--
Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur

Nath wrote:

A good, sensible response about the subs, much appreciated. I'm still at
a loss as to why you reduse to explain what it is about Macs you don't
like? Give me some specifics because I genuinely believe that someone
who's clearly as interested in quality as you would not have major
issues with a Mac, in fact I'd expect you to prefer it.


These are my opinion's/experiences...either with the one I was dealing with-
or the few working Mac's in the office.

Ok then let's see...


Physical design- not bothered what my computer looks like. I don't want to
pay extra for fancy case/monitor.

Irrelevant. You can buy an iBook for less than a similarly specced PC. I
don't care what they look like either - contrary to your opinion few
people buy a Mac for its looks. How does the look of the machine mean it
works crap?


Bundled mouse- small round thing that gave me cramps after 20 minutes. I
don't think a PC USB mouse worked.

Indeed the puck mouse was a bag of ****e. However as 99% of usb mice
work on Macs (multi button ones - I'm using one now) you can change the
mouse to a cheap £4.9 usb one

I had to use the Mac mouse :-( The Mac
lacked right-click so shortcuts like copy/paste had to be done by other
means. Takes longer to do stuff that way.

Plug in a two or 3 or 4 button mouse then. you'll find under OS X that
right clicking works just fine for cut n paste etc. Even with a single
button mouse you can do it by holding the button a fraction longer

Monitor arrived dead.

Of course this never ever happens with pcs?

Apple sent us a partially working keyboard. Some keys worked, some others
outputted something completely different (ie type S and P comes up) This
was a urgent order for a client.

If you received a dead monitor and keyboard you should have sent it
back. If you are so anti Mac why are you speccing them for customers?

Problems with USB- a standard PC USB keyboard didn't work. We had to use
another working Mac keyboard. Gave me cramps.

The original iMac keyboard (which is the small one) is a dog. The new
Pro keyboard is widely acknowledged as one of the best keyboards money
can by, even on PC sites. Standard USB keyboards do work - I use a
£9.99 Maplins job on my iBook from time to time.

Supplied keyboard was worse than a laptop's- tiny with no feel to it. A £10
PC keyboard can take some bashing.

Perhaps if you stopped bashing the keyboard and tried to type your posts
might make more sense?

OS arrived messed up- straight away had to re-install.

Macs *never* arrive with the OS install. Every Mac comes with a set of
CDs ready to install to a fresh hard disk. This ensures your Mac is
brand new. Either you remember incorrectly or your struggling to pick
fault. You're making this up aren't you?

Multi-tasking- the Mac/OS I was using (can't remember) possibly a G3 or G4
Mac. I was using Photoshop to process a image. Whilst this was doing it's
stuff- I couldn't select another app- ie Notepad equalivant. Had to wait
until Photoshop finished the process.

Which version of the OS? If it was OS X then this is not the case. Even
on a lowly 500 mhz G3 i can render photoshop and run 7 or 8 different
tasks simultaneously. When I put a CD in the drive of my Windows XP
laptop i can't do anything until it has mounted the CD. If i try to do
anyhting related to the network while Outlook (the grown up one) is
running either Outlook hangs or the pc crashes.


Video card died- had to replace with a PC ATI video card.

Can't be done. If it was an AGP Mac it wont work with a PC specific card
- they use entirely different bioses. If it was a PCi graphics Mac it
would only work in about 5% of cases. Are these faults true Nathan or
are you making some of it up?

CD drive failed with Photoshop disc inside. Whole unit had to be returned
for repair urgently- couldn't eject the disc by either trash can, or the
keyboard press, or using the pin hole. No eject button like a normal CD-ROM.
Had to rip the tray out to get the CD.

I'm confused by which Mac you're talking about now. All PowerMac G3 and
G4 towers have the usual eject button. All beige G3 PowerMacs have an
eject button. The only machines i can think of that don't have a CD
eject button are the Slot Load iMac and the Flat Panel iMAc (and the
eMac but I'm certain you weren't using one of those).
*Even* then all you need to do is restart the machine holding down the
mouse button and the firmware will eject the CD.
Is this true? Or are you just trolling?

Basically after that experience (and after contacting Apple) we dropped
supplying Mac's - we did think of replacing all PC's with Mac's. Not after
that we didn't. Only the design department were allowed Mac's.

Hmmm, your story is very poorly made out. Too many blatant examples of a
lack of knowledge of Mac architecture for me to believ it, sorry. Hey
why not post it verbatim to uk.computer.sys.mac - I'd love to see what
they make of it!

Games support.

If I want to play games I use a toy - it's called a PC

Ability to tweak the system. Can't install a custom OS (like Windows, Linux
etc)

eh? How is Windows a custom OS?
Do you mean you can't 'customize' the OS? If so you're wrong.

You can tweak Macs to high heaven. OS X is based on a Unix core. I
install and use Unix apps all the time, tweaks UI hacks all sorts of
stuff. LinuxPPC has been around for ages, from the likes of Mandrake,
Suse, Yellowdog, Debian etc- it looks and feels exactly like any pc
linux, except it's running on a Mac. Are you sure you work in IT Nathan
because your knowledge of IT is very very poor.

Supplied HD died a few hours after switch-on - a Fujitsu..

Hmmm, this was a really bad Mac wasn't it Nathan. If so much of it
didn't work how in the hell can you have used it to find that it was so
bad? Even *if* all these things happened, they could just as easily
happen to a pc. Monitor failure, hdd failure and cdrom drive failure are
not Mac specific.

Couldn't get a external SCSI CD Writer to work on any Mac in the art
department. I asked the Mac techie to help- he couldn't get it working
either. The Mac users were pretty experienced, and mystified of this.

So it was SCSI was it? Hmm - can you remember which model of Mac you
were using? Was it a G4 with SCSI? Was it custom built? If you were
using G4s why would you buy SCSI cd writers? Why wouldn't you use
firewire? Seems like a distinct lack of knowledge in the IT department
there mate.
The drive probably wasn't terminated anyway - the most common SCSI
mistake of all ... if any of this is true.

Another indentical SCSI box worked only on the PC's. These were bought in
for the Mac's, to backup data. Some other SCSI devices worked fine with both
PC & Mac (SCSI scanner)

Yet the CD writer boxes worked fine on several PC's. Basically we tried to
track down why it didn't work. Couldn't find the problem. Instead left that
SCSI box connected to the one PC in their office.

Not much of an It edepartment then are you if you just left it rather
than solve the problem - you'd last, oooh, 10 minutes in my place.

After using them for a while I refused to deal with them. I was ****ed off
with them, my fingers and wrists ached. My manager agreed.

Are you sure it wasn't your 'dealer' who agreed? Plank. You've written
about hardware failures, which can happen to anything, you've mentioned
that usb mice and keyboards wouldn't work, which is a lie and you
achieved the impossible of running a PC video card in a Mac.

Nathan - this is a tissue of lies.

So which version of Mac OS did you try? when was this? What were you
trying to achieve on the Mac that you couldn't?


I honestly can't remember.
I guess for computer newbie's a Mac is OK. I didn't like it.

The reason you can't remember Nathan, is because it isn't true. you're a
liar.

You crack me up. If all you'd said was - "I used a Mac and didn't like
it" you wouldn't look like an idiot. However your complete catalgue of
lie upon lie shows you for the idiot you are - and a baltant liar.

Computer newbie? That sounds like you - after all, any IT person worth
their salt doesn't post using Outlook Express - *that's* for newbies,
folk that don't care and fools.

Nice try Nathan - now tell mea bout the Apex dvd player that 'caught
fire'

--
Patrick

"De-Correction is one of the THX mumbo jumbo thingy mi jig, as will as
tonal correction, bass management, Re-Eq.
Checkout the THX site" an AV 'expert', yesterday.

http://www.patrick.navin.btinternet.co.uk/B834763868/

Nigel Barker wrote:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:36:46 +0000, Patrick Navin
wrote:


A good, sensible response about the subs, much appreciated. I'm still at
a loss as to why you reduse to explain what it is about Macs you don't
like? Give me some specifics because I genuinely believe that someone
who's clearly as interested in quality as you would not have major
issues with a Mac, in fact I'd expect you to prefer it.


Personally I hate that bloody stupid single button mouse. Having grown up with
proper Motif VMS & UNIX workstations that have 3 buttons & now that I also use a
nice cordless scroll mouse on my PC I can't believe the Apple thing is so
primitive.


the single button mouse is cack - but, just like a pc, you're not stuck
with it. I use a Microsoft Intellimouse with my Mac - makes it seem even
more like my old SGI now - especially whn I'm running Blender
--
Patrick

"De-Correction is one of the THX mumbo jumbo thingy mi jig, as will as
tonal correction, bass management, Re-Eq.
Checkout the THX site" an AV 'expert', yesterday.

http://www.patrick.navin.btinternet.co.uk/B834763868/

How does the look of the machine mean it works crap?

Nothing- but why should I pay for a fancy case when I don't give a care how
it looks- this costs money.

Of course this never ever happens with pcs?

Of course it does.

If you received a dead monitor and keyboard you should have sent it
back. If you are so anti Mac why are you speccing them for customers?

We only ordered one for a client. We had no replacement components (mouse,
keyboard, monitor) as 99% of the support was for PC's. Wasen't my fault we
had no hot swop Mac's. We didn't have time to send it back. It was a urgent
job- it was quicker to fix it on-site. The clients were asking for Mac's, we
did not recommend them. They wanted them because they look nice.


Macs *never* arrive with the OS install. Every Mac comes with a set of
CDs ready to install to a fresh hard disk. This ensures your Mac is
brand new. Either you remember incorrectly or your struggling to pick
fault. You're making this up aren't you?

Fair enough - if they come blank then my manager must have installed it
before I arrived in the office. And ****ed the
machine up. I did not unpack it.

Which version of the OS? If it was OS X then this is not the case. Even
on a lowly 500 mhz G3 i can render photoshop and run 7 or 8 different
tasks simultaneously. When I put a CD in the drive of my Windows XP
laptop i can't do anything until it has mounted the CD. If i try to do
anyhting related to the network while Outlook (the grown up one) is
running either Outlook hangs or the pc crashes.

It was years ago (probably about 5) How the hell should I know? Would you
remember a trivial
thing like that?

Can't be done. If it was an AGP Mac it wont work with a PC specific card

Must have been a video card of some sort. Again it's years
ago.. but I do remember replacing the video card to get it temporary
working.

I'm confused by which Mac you're talking about now. All PowerMac G3 and

About 5 years ago.

Is this true? Or are you just trolling?

Sigh- why should I be making this up?

Games support.

For work, fine. But I sometimes play games at home.

Hmmm, this was a really bad Mac wasn't it Nathan. If so much of it
didn't work how in the hell can you have used it to find that it was so
bad? Even *if* all these things happened, they could just as easily
happen to a pc. Monitor failure, hdd failure and cdrom drive failure are
not Mac specific.

Ok, my manager must have unpacked it. Tried the montor- dead. So he replaced
with a PC monitor. Installed the OS. That's probably when I came into the
office. Running into problems with it (perhaps the HD was on it's way out) I
then took over. Replaced the HD- installed OS on the new HD. Worked better.


So it was SCSI was it? Hmm - can you remember which model of Mac you
were using? Was it a G4 with SCSI? Was it custom built? If you were
using G4s why would you buy SCSI cd writers? Why wouldn't you use
firewire? Seems like a distinct lack of knowledge in the IT department
there mate.

Because they had some older Mac's too (with SCSI I/O) Firewire wasn't out at
the time.

The drive probably wasn't terminated anyway - the most common SCSI
mistake of all ... if any of this is true.

Yes device was terminated. Worked fine on the PC's, not on the Mac's with
SCSI controllers.

Not much of an It edepartment then are you if you just left it rather
than solve the problem - you'd last, oooh, 10 minutes in my place.

Yeah pretty crap company. I did not leave it- the manager decided to not
replace the current PC's with Mac's.

Are you sure it wasn't your 'dealer' who agreed? Plank. You've written
about hardware failures, which can happen to anything, you've mentioned
that usb mice and keyboards wouldn't work, which is a lie and you
achieved the impossible of running a PC video card in a Mac.

WTF are you on now? What's my hifi dealer got to do with Mac's? Yes hardware
failure's can affect both. The mice & keyboard did not work with that
particular machine (fine with others)

The reason you can't remember Nathan, is because it isn't true. you're a
liar.

5 years ago. Would you remember a small job that long ago?

Computer newbie? That sounds like you - after all, any IT person worth
their salt doesn't post using Outlook Express - *that's* for newbies,
folk that don't care and fools.

What's OE got to do with anything?