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Buying a subwoofer from abroad unheard (serious post)



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 8th 03, 10:50 AM
Patrick Navin
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Default Buying a subwoofer from abroad unheard (serious post)

In order to add more bite to my system I'm looking at upgrading from my
twin PSW1000.2's that I use with my Kef Eggs, to a single larger sub
with more oomph.
The reasons for this are that, since I laid a wood floor in my room, the
sub response has diminished a little, necessitating increasing the ouput
of the subs, but I still think they are struggling to deliver the same
slam they delivered ona carpeted floor.
Not wanting to emulate Nathan, but inevitably I've seen a US sub (and I
have to agree with Nath that the Yanks know subs and amplification) that
I fancy but wont be able to get over there to listen to it within the
next few months. Is it really viable to buy a sub unheard?
I know the brand very well - I have their AV receiver the 1050, which is
s simply stunning performer through use of high quality ouput stages and
simple fuss free processing - but is this a fool's errand?

The sub is this one:
http://www.outlawaudio.com//products/lfm1_gallery.html

not pretty - but then US AV gear rarely is.


--
Patrick

"I did the grabs via a Duomix61 grabber as used by 'security sources'"
"I never grabbed them on a PC mate -they went via IE56575 to a fancy
technical thingie grabber -or something" - un-named Video capture 'expert'

  #2  
Old December 8th 03, 11:50 AM
Robin
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looks like the rel subs

this is going to cost a lot to ship 58lbs plus packing, then have it
converted (or use transformer) for 240v

the rels come up quite often on the 2nd hand market, they are great (or buy
new).

my 2 pence worth.



"Patrick Navin" wrote in message
...
In order to add more bite to my system I'm looking at upgrading from my
twin PSW1000.2's that I use with my Kef Eggs, to a single larger sub
with more oomph.
The reasons for this are that, since I laid a wood floor in my room, the
sub response has diminished a little, necessitating increasing the ouput
of the subs, but I still think they are struggling to deliver the same
slam they delivered ona carpeted floor.
Not wanting to emulate Nathan, but inevitably I've seen a US sub (and I
have to agree with Nath that the Yanks know subs and amplification) that
I fancy but wont be able to get over there to listen to it within the
next few months. Is it really viable to buy a sub unheard?
I know the brand very well - I have their AV receiver the 1050, which is
s simply stunning performer through use of high quality ouput stages and
simple fuss free processing - but is this a fool's errand?

The sub is this one:
http://www.outlawaudio.com//products/lfm1_gallery.html

not pretty - but then US AV gear rarely is.


--
Patrick

"I did the grabs via a Duomix61 grabber as used by 'security sources'"
"I never grabbed them on a PC mate -they went via IE56575 to a fancy
technical thingie grabber -or something" - un-named Video capture 'expert'



  #3  
Old December 8th 03, 12:21 PM
ah
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My only concern about importing equipment from the US is the issue of
support should things go awry.


  #4  
Old December 8th 03, 01:56 PM
Nath
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"Patrick Navin" wrote in message
...
In order to add more bite to my system I'm looking at upgrading from my
twin PSW1000.2's that I use with my Kef Eggs, to a single larger sub
with more oomph.
The reasons for this are that, since I laid a wood floor in my room, the
sub response has diminished a little, necessitating increasing the ouput
of the subs, but I still think they are struggling to deliver the same
slam they delivered ona carpeted floor.
Not wanting to emulate Nathan, but inevitably I've seen a US sub (and I
have to agree with Nath that the Yanks know subs and amplification) that
I fancy but wont be able to get over there to listen to it within the
next few months. Is it really viable to buy a sub unheard?
I know the brand very well - I have their AV receiver the 1050, which is
s simply stunning performer through use of high quality ouput stages and
simple fuss free processing - but is this a fool's errand?

The sub is this one:
http://www.outlawaudio.com//products/lfm1_gallery.html

not pretty - but then US AV gear rarely is.


--
Patrick


If the company already has a exportation procedure then it should go quite
quickly. You already have imported another Outlaw bit of kit- did you just
order it (Bax?) picked it up, flown/shipped over, sent to your nearest
airport- then you rang the UK warehouse of the delivery company (ie Bax,
UPS, Fed Ex etc) then arrange a delivery date? and then pay for customs &
duty. Make sure you do factory to door (not factory to airport) otherwise
you'll have to set yourself up as a importer (expensive charge)

How are Outlaw customer service? That is probably the most important. If a
company has the usual CS level- **** (and it arrives faulty) it could be
expensive returning the part, and paying for postage for a replacement. I
know SVS sent out a replacement amp panel FOC for a UK customer, and paid
postage for the returned panel. They didn't have to do that.

That's why I harp on about SVS, it's not just the subwoofer- it's customer
service as well. Just go to a few American forums and browse SVS comments.

Looks a good subwoofer- similar wattage BASH amp as the SVS PCi range. I
guess the PB1 box and PCi would be in your price range ($600) and very
similar- 12", 325W BASH, although cylinders have higher volume, cheaper &
easier to produce enclosure- no bracing reg. (therefore money spent
elseware) That Outlaw is tuned to 25hz (like the SVS box subs) due to excess
size a 16 or 20hz box subwoofer will require (meaning it'll end up too big,
and too expensive)

Shipping for my SVS was $130, with Bax adding £10 admin charge.

I would search for comments of Outlaw subwoofer owners, who've also owned
great subs- Velodyne HGS, and also owners with your Paradigm subwoofer- that
sort of thing. At least comments from them mean something- ie better than
this "I've never owned a subwoofer before, this Yamaha YST-40W is
fantastic!!! It shakes the room" that sort of thing.

You don't have to emulate me- you could buy two SVS B4 Plus's. Why not
consider a SVS 20-39 PC Plus- around £730 all in? That way you will
understand what I'm talking about.

The only way I bought my SVS unheard is because I've read of people with the
same Rel as me who upgraded to a SVS (either PCi, PC Plus, 16/20/25hz models
and they've ALL said of a improvement) And compared it similar to a HGS-15.


(subs with at least 25hz extension)
SVS 20-39cs ~ 109.5dB (25hz)

(subs with at least 31hz extension)
Paradigm PW2200 ~ 108.0dB (28hz)
Paradigm servo15 ~ 107.3dB (27hz)
Paradigm PDR12 ~ 98dB (50hz)
Paradigm pdr-8 ~91.4dB (46hz)




  #5  
Old December 8th 03, 02:07 PM
Nath
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Robin" wrote in message
...
looks like the rel subs

this is going to cost a lot to ship 58lbs plus packing, then have it
converted (or use transformer) for 240v

the rels come up quite often on the 2nd hand market, they are great (or

buy
new).

my 2 pence worth.


The outlaw is a ported sub (which helps efficiency) $600- probably £550 all
in UK price. Rel subs around £500-£600 don't have a 325W amp. The Rel Q150
only has a 150W amp, is sealed box (is not enough, sealed box require tons
of power)

The BASH amps have a internal jumper to switch voltage (like my SVS Bash
amp) therefore no external step down is needed.

Rel's were great for hi-fi, but not anymore for AV use. My Storm doesn't
cope. They are overpriced now, compared to SVS and a few other select
companies.


  #6  
Old December 8th 03, 02:10 PM
Nath
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Oh yeah when someone commented the SVS was better than the M&K MX-350, that
did it. :-D

Has that Outlaw got a sub sonic filter? If you know anything what this does
(removes frequencies below the port tune)- it really is needed on ported
subs, as it allows higher SPL, lower distortion at these levels, and reduces
port chuffing/possiblity of driver bottoming out.


  #7  
Old December 8th 03, 03:31 PM
Patrick Navin
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Posts: n/a
Default

Nath wrote:
"Patrick Navin" wrote in message
...

In order to add more bite to my system I'm looking at upgrading from my
twin PSW1000.2's that I use with my Kef Eggs, to a single larger sub
with more oomph.
The reasons for this are that, since I laid a wood floor in my room, the
sub response has diminished a little, necessitating increasing the ouput
of the subs, but I still think they are struggling to deliver the same
slam they delivered ona carpeted floor.
Not wanting to emulate Nathan, but inevitably I've seen a US sub (and I
have to agree with Nath that the Yanks know subs and amplification) that
I fancy but wont be able to get over there to listen to it within the
next few months. Is it really viable to buy a sub unheard?
I know the brand very well - I have their AV receiver the 1050, which is
s simply stunning performer through use of high quality ouput stages and
simple fuss free processing - but is this a fool's errand?

The sub is this one:
http://www.outlawaudio.com//products/lfm1_gallery.html

not pretty - but then US AV gear rarely is.


--
Patrick



If the company already has a exportation procedure then it should go quite
quickly. You already have imported another Outlaw bit of kit- did you just
order it (Bax?) picked it up, flown/shipped over, sent to your nearest
airport- then you rang the UK warehouse of the delivery company (ie Bax,
UPS, Fed Ex etc) then arrange a delivery date? and then pay for customs &
duty. Make sure you do factory to door (not factory to airport) otherwise
you'll have to set yourself up as a importer (expensive charge)


I know how to import stuff cheers Nathan, my first ever job after the
RAF was as an importation admin.



How are Outlaw customer service? That is probably the most important. If a
company has the usual CS level- **** (and it arrives faulty) it could be
expensive returning the part, and paying for postage for a replacement. I
know SVS sent out a replacement amp panel FOC for a UK customer, and paid
postage for the returned panel. They didn't have to do that.


Outlaw have a fantastic reputation for customer service.


That's why I harp on about SVS, it's not just the subwoofer- it's customer
service as well. Just go to a few American forums and browse SVS comments.

Looks a good subwoofer- similar wattage BASH amp as the SVS PCi range. I
guess the PB1 box and PCi would be in your price range ($600) and very
similar- 12", 325W BASH, although cylinders have higher volume, cheaper &
easier to produce enclosure- no bracing reg. (therefore money spent
elseware) That Outlaw is tuned to 25hz (like the SVS box subs) due to excess
size a 16 or 20hz box subwoofer will require (meaning it'll end up too big,
and too expensive)


My 'price range' is whatever i want to spend. Don't sonfuse it with the
price range of the kit I'm looking at.

The Outlaw appeals because A: Outlaw make phenomenally good products -
the 1050 AV receiver was voted best Av receiver under $1500 by at least
3 US magazines, even though it only retailed (direct only - no
distributor markup) at $599. They then dropped the price to $499!

Shipping for my SVS was $130, with Bax adding £10 admin charge.

I would search for comments of Outlaw subwoofer owners, who've also owned
great subs- Velodyne HGS, and also owners with your Paradigm subwoofer- that
sort of thing. At least comments from them mean something- ie better than
this "I've never owned a subwoofer before, this Yamaha YST-40W is
fantastic!!! It shakes the room" that sort of thing.


Difficult one, the Outlaw is not yet available. As one of Outlaw's very
first customers ever for the 1050 I can get a substantial discount on
the sub - no point in paying $599 if I can pay $299.



You don't have to emulate me- you could buy two SVS B4 Plus's. Why not
consider a SVS 20-39 PC Plus- around £730 all in? That way you will
understand what I'm talking about.


I don't want an SVS - I don't know the brand. The only person I've ever
heard talk about them is you - no offence - but there's only one of you.
That aside I don't want 2 subs - space is an issue. As for knowing what
you're talking about - I never know what you're talking about Nathan


The only way I bought my SVS unheard is because I've read of people with the
same Rel as me who upgraded to a SVS (either PCi, PC Plus, 16/20/25hz models
and they've ALL said of a improvement) And compared it similar to a HGS-15.


I tend to try and make my decisions based on my own ears. Much as I love
the idea of the Outlaw sub, I'm very very concerned about buying
something unheard.


(subs with at least 25hz extension)
SVS 20-39cs ~ 109.5dB (25hz)

(subs with at least 31hz extension)
Paradigm PW2200 ~ 108.0dB (28hz)
Paradigm servo15 ~ 107.3dB (27hz)
Paradigm PDR12 ~ 98dB (50hz)
Paradigm pdr-8 ~91.4dB (46hz)



Extension is only a relatively small part of what makes a sub though.
You can't judge a sub purely by how low it goes.

--
Patrick

I only use a Mac to annoy you - I bet you're annoyed now
GGFYT - the only thing you ever need to hear
http://www.patrick.navin.btinternet.co.uk/B834763868/
"When you were young, you were the King of Carrot Flowers"

  #8  
Old December 8th 03, 04:07 PM
Nath
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My 'price range' is whatever i want to spend. Don't sonfuse it with the
price range of the kit I'm looking at.


SVS B4 Ultra (not yet out) with a Crown K2? :-D

I don't want an SVS - I don't know the brand. The only person I've ever
heard talk about them is you - no offence - but there's only one of you.
That aside I don't want 2 subs - space is an issue. As for knowing what
you're talking about - I never know what you're talking about Nathan


I didn't know the brand either- I thought they were hype- and my Rel was
better. So did my dealer (I saw the high number of posts on the US forums,
and saw these as hype) My dealer now think's it's better than a M&K MX-350
Mark II and similar to a Rel Studio.

People have compared the Velodyne CHT-15 to the PC Plus, again praising the
SVS over the Velo.

There are hundreds of comments, dozens of threads on the American forums.
That's what got me interested in that subwoofer brand. I've read one from a
M&K to SVS upgrader (MX-5000 to CS-Ultra's) All I can say it's better than a
Rel Q100E (RRP of £500) and a Rel Storm (RRP of £700).

I tend to try and make my decisions based on my own ears. Much as I love
the idea of the Outlaw sub, I'm very very concerned about buying
something unheard.


Same here. It was a risk. I would wait until people have commented about
that subwoofer- or any other subwoofer you're interested in.

Extension is only a relatively small part of what makes a sub though.
You can't judge a sub purely by how low it goes.


True, but the figurse also gives how low, how loud and all within 10% THD.
Note my PC Plus isn't in that listing- only the old CS. Lesser quality
driver, lower powered amp, single port only. I wish Tom Noisane tests the
newer SVS's, and some Rels too. Why not read a few reviews on SVS
subwoofers? (google search)

Read this review comparing the Velodyne HGS-18 and CS-Ultra package (plus
some others)

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...s-12-2001.html
and the top of the range B4 Plus
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...er-9-2003.html


  #9  
Old December 8th 03, 11:49 PM
Nath
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So what do you think of the SVS box subs? (price, features, size, spec)

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_boxes.htm

I've been hearing of SVS appointing a UK dealer for a while now.. if that
happens expect prices to rise. But at least you'll have the chance to demo
one.


  #10  
Old December 9th 03, 10:39 PM
Nath
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"Jag" wrote in message ...
SVS Get yourself one of them from svsubwoofer.com



I'm afraid he won't. Because I got one.

He's too proud to do that.


 




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