New Tivo announcement that will allow Tivo to save shows to PCs !

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...m/tech_tivo_dc

"Martha Stewart's cellmate" wrote

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...20040109/tc_nm
/tech_tivo_dc

Yes, but there is a catch which to me would rank them in the "close but no
cigar" category:

"TiVo also unveiled TiVo-to-Go, which lets users who also subscribe to an
additional TiVo home networking service to transfer shows they have recorded
on the set-top box to a home computer. The system is kept secure by a unique
key-sized memory device that must be plugged into the computer when the
recorded content is watched or copied."

So watching what you transfer requires a dongle? Forget it.

"Brian" [email protected] writes:

"TiVo also unveiled TiVo-to-Go, which lets users who also subscribe to an
additional TiVo home networking service to transfer shows they have recorded
on the set-top box to a home computer. The system is kept secure by a unique
key-sized memory device that must be plugged into the computer when the
recorded content is watched or copied."

So watching what you transfer requires a dongle? Forget it.

Watching it by playing the file on your computer requires a dongle.
Once it's burned to a DVD, you can watch the DVD anywhere (PC player,
consumer DVD player, etc).

--
Rich Carreiro

In article ID , Rich Carreiro
writes:

Watching it by playing the file on your computer requires a dongle.
Once it's burned to a DVD, you can watch the DVD anywhere (PC player,
consumer DVD player, etc)

Sorry, that makes no sense to me. Does that mean you HAVE to use some sort of
special DVD player software to view the DVD? Don't you think it might be that
you just need the dongle to transfer the video to the PC?

Once there, (if you can already burn to a DVD,) there can not be a limitation
on viewing it, because the DVD player (like Win DVD or Media Player 9,) does
not care if the DVD is a file on the HDD or in the DVD drive. This would
interfere with regular DVDs being viewed, which makes absolutely no sense to
me.

My guess, (and it's just a guess here,) is that the software will be an add-on
to the existing HMO desktop software we currently use to publish images and
mp3s on our TiVo. It currently requires a TiVo ip address to be present. My
guess is that before you can see the video you want to copy to your PC, the
software has to see the key on the PC as well.

Phil Leonard writes:

In article ID , Rich Carreiro
writes:

Watching it by playing the file on your computer requires a dongle.
Once it's burned to a DVD, you can watch the DVD anywhere (PC player,
consumer DVD player, etc)

Sorry, that makes no sense to me. Does that mean you HAVE to use some sort of
special DVD player software to view the DVD? Don't you think it might be that
you just need the dongle to transfer the video to the PC?

Read the Tivo press release about it as well as other material on
Tivo's website. It clearly states that:
(a) to play the *file* (NOT THE DVD) you have to have
the USB dongle in the machine.
(b) you can burn a standard DVD from the file.
(c) you can play that DVD anywhere, including plain
old consumer DVD players.

Once there, (if you can already burn to a DVD,) there can not be a limitation
on viewing it, because the DVD player (like Win DVD or Media Player 9,) does
not care if the DVD is a file on the HDD

Given the presence of the dongle, I'm going to bet that the file
pulled to the PC from the Tivo is encrypted with a code unique to your
Tivo account, which is why the dongle is needed (the decrypt key will
be on the dongle). And that's why WinDVD or Media Player 9 will be
unable to play it w/o the dongle.

Similarly, given that they state a burned DVD can be played anywhere,
including plain old DVD players, that would imply a standard DVD is
being burned, without the encyption.

And yes -- I can't see what would stop you from ripping back
the DVD you just burned.

My guess, (and it's just a guess here,) is that the software will be an add-on
to the existing HMO desktop software we currently use to publish images and
mp3s on our TiVo.

It's already been announced it'll be a tweaked version
of Sonic Software's MyDVD.

--
Rich Carreiro

In article ID , Rich Carreiro
writes:

Given the presence of the dongle, I'm going to bet that the file
pulled to the PC from the Tivo is encrypted with a code unique to your
Tivo account, which is why the dongle is needed (the decrypt key will
be on the dongle). And that's why WinDVD or Media Player 9 will be
unable to play it w/o the dongle.

This is where I think there is some confusion. Once that mpeg file is
decrypted with a key, it should be playable with any player. If you take any
DVD and take the mpg out (just copy it to the HDD and play it,) it is playable
with any DVD player program. I think the "key" simply allows you to decrypt
the previously encrypted mpeg residing on the TiVo. Especially since there is
already a hack for the TiVo S1 that already does this. The "key" just limits
the ability to decrypt to paying customers.

Similarly, given that they state a burned DVD can be played anywhere,
including plain old DVD players, that would imply a standard DVD is
being burned, without the encyption.

Which means one of two things. The file is no longer encrypted or the burning
software does the decrypting. Since we already know it's hardware (the "key.")
That means the DVD files are already decrypted and any burning program will
work.

To give you an example: DVD Xcopy decrypts a copyright protected DVD to a
temporary directory, burns the DVD and deletes the temporary directory so that
the decrypted files will no longer reside on the user's HDD. All the user has
to do is to copy those decrypted files to another directory (or check the box
for an external burner like nero,) and voila, you can use any burner to burn,
or any player to play, or copy it to the Inet, or whatever.
http://www.dvdxcopy.com/

And yes -- I can't see what would stop you from ripping back
the DVD you just burned.

And THAT is just how easy it will be to "work around" the "protection" of
keeping these files off of the Internet. All that will be for us users is a
hassle. And I've been jumping to this conclusion in my discussions here, that
a DVD is simply an mpeg with a menu file. The only protection that would work
for Internet sharing is some sort of decss type of encryption like they do
with DVDs, VHS tapes, and some PPV movies, which will not allow "good" copies.

If in fact there is a decss scramble included with the burned DVD, then you
would just use something similar to DVD Xcopy.

But, if it's all that complicated, not only would it be senseless, it would be
simply ridiculous since one is allowed to use a DVD recorder or a VHS recorder
with ZERO aggravation. I can copy a DVD made from TiVo RIGHT NOW and upload it
on the Internet if I want to. And did I say, it's easy as can be?

Phil Leonard wrote:

This is where I think there is some confusion. Once that mpeg file is
decrypted with a key, it should be playable with any player.

Sure, if the decrypted mpeg file was written to the disk.
I expect the decryption is done on the stream, which means other players
cannot access it.

I think the "key" simply allows you to decrypt
the previously encrypted mpeg residing on the TiVo.

I don't interpret it that way. I get the impression that the previously
encrypted mpeg file is copied verbatim to the PC, and the file has to be
decrypted on the fly as the proprietary player plays it.

Especially since there is already a hack for the TiVo S1 that already does this.

The video streams are not encrypted on Series 1 units.
The hack for Series 2 disables encryption of future recordings, it does
not defeat encryption of prior recordings.


The "key" just limits the ability to decrypt to paying customers.

The "key" allows paying customers to view the programs.
Non-paying customers cannot view the programs at all.

Similarly, given that they state a burned DVD can be played anywhere,
including plain old DVD players, that would imply a standard DVD is
being burned, without the encyption.

Which means one of two things. The file is no longer encrypted or the burning
software does the decrypting. Since we already know it's hardware (the "key.")
That means the DVD files are already decrypted and any burning program will
work.

You're not making sense. We know that a piece of hardware (the "key" or
"dongle") has to be plugged in to view the files. We do not know
whether the hardware does all the decrypting or if it simply provides
crucial information that the software needs to do the decryption. I
expect the latter. You cannot use simply any burning program because
the decrypted data is not stored as a file on disk.

-Joe
--
I love my TiVo - http://www.inwap.com/u/joe/tivo/

In article ,
Phil Leonard wrote:
http://www.dvdxcopy.com/

And yes -- I can't see what would stop you from ripping back
the DVD you just burned.

And THAT is just how easy it will be to "work around" the "protection" of
keeping these files off of the Internet. All that will be for us users is a
hassle. And I've been jumping to this conclusion in my discussions here, that

Indeed. Actually, unless they CSS encode the DVDs, it may be even
easier than that.

Note that the MPAA considers DVDxcopy illegal under the DMCA, and is
trying to shut it down.

(Financial Disclosu 321 Studios has promised to donate $25 to the
EFF for each copy of lite-on and dvd X copy platinum bundle sold)


This is part of an interesting philosophy among some of the forces on
the MPAA side. Some want an absolutely locked system, closing any
window into it they can find. Others prefer the "speed bump" approach,
they just want to make it a little harder but know that anybody
determined will get a copy.


Both approaches have numerous downsides. The complete-lock folks will
never attain their goal, and may in fact be a feint, to get the speed
bumps. The speed bumps seem to just make things harder for everybody
and gain little for the studios -- unless they can shut down filesharing
networks, since all it takes is one determined copier to put a a file
on Kazaa.

Some people may also take the speed bump approach because they feel they
have to have *something*, even if it doesn't work. Or they may feel it
reminds the user that they might be infringing. I will give this idea
some credit. For example, the DRM on most of the online music stores
lets you burn a CD with the songs you download, from which you can of
course then rip a completely unprotected file. But in doing so you
won't get CDDB data and you must transcode, and that is enough to stop
people, they hope, when the retail price is under a buck.

It also interfers with people legitimately wanting to play an AAC song
from iTunes on an mp3 player that doesn't do AAC.

--
How did "spam" E-mail get its name?
http://www.templetons.com/brad/spamterm.html

In article ID , (Brad
Templeton) writes:

Indeed. Actually, unless they CSS encode the DVDs, it may be even
easier than that.

Note that the MPAA considers DVDxcopy illegal under the DMCA, and is
trying to shut it down.

(Financial Disclosu 321 Studios has promised to donate $25 to the
EFF for each copy of lite-on and dvd X copy platinum bundle sold)


This is part of an interesting philosophy among some of the forces on
the MPAA side. Some want an absolutely locked system, closing any
window into it they can find. Others prefer the "speed bump" approach,
they just want to make it a little harder but know that anybody
determined will get a copy.


Both approaches have numerous downsides. The complete-lock folks will
never attain their goal, and may in fact be a feint, to get the speed
bumps. The speed bumps seem to just make things harder for everybody
and gain little for the studios -- unless they can shut down filesharing
networks, since all it takes is one determined copier to put a a file
on Kazaa.

Some people may also take the speed bump approach because they feel they
have to have *something*, even if it doesn't work. Or they may feel it
reminds the user that they might be infringing. I will give this idea
some credit. For example, the DRM on most of the online music stores
lets you burn a CD with the songs you download, from which you can of
course then rip a completely unprotected file. But in doing so you
won't get CDDB data and you must transcode, and that is enough to stop
people, they hope, when the retail price is under a buck.

It also interfers with people legitimately wanting to play an AAC song
from iTunes on an mp3 player that doesn't do AAC.

Nice post.

Joe Smith ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
You're not making sense. We know that a piece of hardware (the "key" or
"dongle") has to be plugged in to view the files. We do not know
whether the hardware does all the decrypting or if it simply provides
crucial information that the software needs to do the decryption. I
expect the latter. You cannot use simply any burning program because
the decrypted data is not stored as a file on disk.

This is an important distinction, because it seems that with this dongle
approach, only the Sonic software can decrypt and then burn the video
to DVD.

The problem with this is that current TiVos (except for DVD recorders with
TiVo software built-in) do *not* store the MPEG-2 in a format that can
just be "copied to DVD". It *must* be re-encoded. As we all know, some
programs do this well, and some do it poorly, but even the very best result
in a loss of quality.

This is one case where limiting the choice really does harm the user, because
some of us have spent a great deal of money on really good MPEG encoding
solutions. Not being able to use them is a bit of a pain.

--
Jeff Rife | Sam: What d'ya say to a beer, Normie?
For address harvesters: |
| Norm: Hi, sailor...new in town?
|
|