Charging for iPlayer

In article ,
Roderick Stewart wrote:

agreed that the arrangements needing changing so that 'listen again' *also*
needed a license.
....
The comment was just after 4pm I think. So use of 'listen again' may find
what he said and we can check the wording. :-)

We'd better listen again while we still can without a licence,

Listen again?

I didn't listen to it the first time, so I can't be accused of
"listening again"

I invoke the Mad Hatter exemption. ("more tea?")
--
--------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Mike Brown: mjb[-at-]signal11.org.uk | http://www.signal11.org.uk

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 09/07/2015 11:47, Martin wrote:
)

I've never watched CSI, but I do know that the web sites do see your IP address.
Some use it to get the approximate location of the person using the website.

It won't reveal that in most cases, just who your ISP is, and the
location of their server. Although most domestic punters do have
dynamic IP address, I suspect the ISPs retain logs of who was allocated
what IP address, and when. If the TVL people want to identify and match
up people with IP addresses, they are going to have collate data from
every ISP.

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

In article ,
lid says...

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 13:21:52 +0100, Roderick Stewart
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:41:43 +0200, Martin wrote:

As for catching people out, presumably they already log IP addresses
(not infallible) and plant cookies to track devices and what they've
watched, so we won't need PC detector vans ...

But unless we have to start logging in to use IPlayer, they cannot
connect an IP address to a TV Licence.

They can if you have to provide an IP address to get a TV licence.
When you connect to iPlayer they know your IP address.

You've been watching CSI haven't you? :-)

I'm not Hercule Poirot :-)

I've never watched CSI, but I do know that the web sites do see your IP address.
Some use it to get the approximate location of the person using the website.

You can only get a general area from an IP address and this data is held
in publicly accessible databases, at a cost if you want to make a lot of
hits or it is for commercial use.

But it will not identify your street nor address, or even your town if
you live in a sparse area and it most certainly will not identify you.

If you want to know more only an ISP can tell you and for that, you will
need a court order.

On 09/07/2015 11:47, Martin wrote:
Some use it to get the approximate location of the person using the website.

They get it wrong too

My office address is owned by an American company and connects to the
Internet through Dublin. Which doesn't stop Google from thinking we're
in Mumbai off and on. The BBC consistently have us abroad.

Andy

In article , Mark Carver
wrote:
On 09/07/2015 11:47, Martin wrote: )

I've never watched CSI, but I do know that the web sites do see your
IP address. Some use it to get the approximate location of the person
using the website.

It won't reveal that in most cases, just who your ISP is, and the
location of their server. Although most domestic punters do have dynamic
IP address, I suspect the ISPs retain logs of who was allocated what IP
address, and when. If the TVL people want to identify and match up
people with IP addresses, they are going to have collate data from
every ISP.

Indeed. That's why I suspect that in future an email (or visit) to ISPs
will take the place of ye olde teevee detector cart. ISPs who refuse to
co-operate would risk being blocked, provoking the annoyance of their
'legit' customers. Whereas co-operation would mean said legit customers
would not need to be bothered or questioned and probably wouldn't notice
the checks.

Jim

--
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article , Vir
Campestris wrote:
On 09/07/2015 11:47, Martin wrote:
Some use it to get the approximate location of the person using the
website.

They get it wrong too

My office address is owned by an American company and connects to the
Internet through Dublin. Which doesn't stop Google from thinking we're
in Mumbai off and on. The BBC consistently have us abroad.

I presume a future form for requesting a TV license could provide a means
for telling the BBC this. They can then check out the details. So might
well be a means of sorting out your problems.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 10:53:18 +0000 (UTC), y wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:41:43 +0200
Martin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 23:02:49 +0100, Yellow wrote:
But unless we have to start logging in to use IPlayer, they cannot
connect an IP address to a TV Licence.

They can if you have to provide an IP address to get a TV licence.
When you connect to iPlayer they know your IP address.

Given almost all home IP addresses both numeric and DNS are dynamic and often
change each time a DHCP lease is renewed that IP address is meaningless. The
best they'll be able to do is know your service provider and your rough
geographic location. Any more information than that and they'd need to get a
court order.

The Andrew Crossley (ACS:Law) debacle showed that many ISP's were only
too keen to provide them with the addresses of customers without any
due process.


--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

I suspect the ISPs retain logs of who was allocated
what IP address, and when.

I suspect they are required to keep logs a lot more detailled than
that.



--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

In article ,
says...

In article , Mark Carver
wrote:
On 09/07/2015 11:47, Martin wrote: )

I've never watched CSI, but I do know that the web sites do see your
IP address. Some use it to get the approximate location of the person
using the website.

It won't reveal that in most cases, just who your ISP is, and the
location of their server. Although most domestic punters do have dynamic
IP address, I suspect the ISPs retain logs of who was allocated what IP
address, and when. If the TVL people want to identify and match up
people with IP addresses, they are going to have collate data from
every ISP.

Indeed. That's why I suspect that in future an email (or visit) to ISPs
will take the place of ye olde teevee detector cart. ISPs who refuse to
co-operate would risk being blocked, provoking the annoyance of their
'legit' customers. Whereas co-operation would mean said legit customers
would not need to be bothered or questioned and probably wouldn't notice
the checks.

Jim

You are either joking or the decade old debate about ISPs being
responsible for providing information to commercial organisations
potentially against the interests of their customers, has passed you by.

In article , Yellow
wrote:
In article ,


Indeed. That's why I suspect that in future an email (or visit) to
ISPs will take the place of ye olde teevee detector cart. ISPs who
refuse to co-operate would risk being blocked, provoking the annoyance
of their 'legit' customers. Whereas co-operation would mean said legit
customers would not need to be bothered or questioned and probably
wouldn't notice the checks.


You are either joking or the decade old debate about ISPs being
responsible for providing information to commercial organisations
potentially against the interests of their customers, has passed you by.

No, I'm quite aware of it. Just as I'm aware that the police, and others,
have search and discovery powers, and have had them for many years. Despite
the beliefs of some, the internet never has been a wild west where no laws
at all apply anywhere. Just that in practice enforcement of many laws has
been difficult, and varied from case to case.

Beyond that you'd need to unpick the relevance of your phrasing

"entity being responsible for providing information to commercial
organisations potentially against the interests of their customers..."

It overlooks minor details like the BBC not being a conventional
"commercial organisation" but one set up with a special status. Plus the
point that in this context the relevant "interests" might be to evade
payment. Given that, the law may well allow action to uncover what is
"against the interest of the [ISP] customer" because it is in the interest
of other injured parties - both the BBC and those of us who'd otherwise
have to carry the payment dodged.

So in practice what happens should depend on the nature of the situation. A
blanket "all info is confidential from everyone" seems as daft as "all info
must be openly published".

Its a question of establishing a due process for when and how seach and
disclosure should be done. e.g. The ISP might have to say who had been
fetching from the BBC iplayer, but other aspects of their activity could be
withheld or redacted or become unactionable.

Personally I'm not inclined to be concerned that it may be against
someone's "interests as a customer" to disclose that they dodge such
payments and access material without entitlement. Leaving in the process
the rest of us to pick up the tab. But then I take a similar view about
people and companies who play games so as to 'lose' profits abroad and
dodge things like tax, responsibilies for their own customers, employees,
etc.

The laws and their application should suit the circumstances. Not be driven
by a simplistic one-size-fits-all dogma.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html