Matters the people in the street may not have considered before the Referendum.

On Wed, 10 Sep 2014 18:14:48 +0100, "R. Mark Clayton"
wrote:


"Paul D Smith" wrote in message
...
A work colleague has been wondering about university tuition fees. There
is a strange anomaly at present in that the UK can charge English students
but not EU students. As I understand it, the reason is that we do not
charge Scottish (or Welsh?) students and we cannot do worse to EU students
than we do to our own and since Scotland is part of the UK, that means
free. And currently Scotland can charge the English because this is a
intra-country rule and not an inter-country rule.

But if Scotland leave the UK, but joins the EU, then either they must
allow English students into Scottish universities for free, or they must
charge the Scottish students the same as the English. So there might be a
wave of applications from England to the top Scottish unis!

There is already a bit of that.


Paul DS.

I suspect the EU would wait and see what happened in the rUK referendum on
Europe before formally admitting Scotland. There may be cynical veto by the
Spanish because they don't want to set a precedent for secession of
Catalonia or the Basque country.

There are other disputed borders within the EU. If Scotland were allowed
to join the EU it could cause unrest in all sorts of places. I think
there is a substantial probability that Scotland would be refused entry
to the EU.

In any case even if Scotland where to be allowed into the EU this could
not happen immediately. It might take years. So there would be a time
when the land border between England and Scotland would be an external
border of the EU. There are rules about the EU's external borders that
cannot be changed at will by a border country. The rUK would be
responsible for controlling, and if necessarily patrolling, the border
with Scotland to regulate entry into the EU in accordance with EU rules.
The EU's eastern external border with Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and
Moldova, has fences along it. A fence might be necessary between England
and Scotland to prevent illegal entries into the EU. There would also
need to be sea patrols to prevent illegal crossings by boat from
Scotland to England or Northern Ireland, or even to Wales. There could
be difficulties if people from Scotland try to bypass EU border controls
by travelling via the Isle of Man. That could result in more immigration
controls at those ports and airports in the rUK where passengers arrive
from the IOM.

The EU might also push an independent Scotland into joining the Euro.


--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)

On Wed, 10 Sep 2014 18:26:28 +0100, Roderick Stewart
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Sep 2014 18:20:56 +0100, "R. Mark Clayton"
wrote:


which TV programmes they'll be able to watch and whether they'll
still need to pay a licence to London to watch them,

BBC likely to go encrypted and you will have to pay for a card.

What if your TV receiver doesn't have a card slot?

You would have to buy a suitable STB.

--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)

NY wrote:

If people vote in the next election as they did in the 2010 one, then there
are 41 fewer Labour, 11 fewer Lib Dem and 1 fewer Conservative.

So that would convert a hung parliament into a clear result - goodbye
coalition.

Regardless of next week's result, Scotland will still be voting for the
UK parliament next May, along with England and Wales ...

On 10/09/2014 19:15, Peter Duncanson wrote:

There are other disputed borders within the EU. If Scotland were allowed
to join the EU it could cause unrest in all sorts of places. I think
there is a substantial probability that Scotland would be refused entry
to the EU.

In any case even if Scotland where to be allowed into the EU this could
not happen immediately. It might take years. So there would be a time
when the land border between England and Scotland would be an external
border of the EU. There are rules about the EU's external borders that
cannot be changed at will by a border country. The rUK would be
responsible for controlling, and if necessarily patrolling, the border
with Scotland to regulate entry into the EU in accordance with EU rules.
The EU's eastern external border with Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and
Moldova, has fences along it. A fence might be necessary between England
and Scotland to prevent illegal entries into the EU. There would also
need to be sea patrols to prevent illegal crossings by boat from
Scotland to England or Northern Ireland, or even to Wales. There could
be difficulties if people from Scotland try to bypass EU border controls
by travelling via the Isle of Man. That could result in more immigration
controls at those ports and airports in the rUK where passengers arrive
from the IOM.


The whole proposition is full of problems like this. Money is another
big problem, I don't want to find that my bank account is in a foreign
country. As a resident of England I would not want to find that we are
having to underwrite the finances of a left wing Scottish government.

I do wonder that even if there is a majority yes vote, having a more
devolved government might not be the final outcome.


--
Michael Chare

In message , NY
writes





I wonder what passports for Scottish people will say if independence
goes ahead. Presumably Scottish people's nationality will no longer be
"British" (or "UK" as America insists you write on one of their
immigration forms). Will they have to have their passports re-issued by
a Scottish passport office and with nationality "Scottish"?

I guess the situation will be as follows:

After independence, all Scots born in the Scotland before independence
will remain UK citizens. Presumably the Scottish government will choose
to grant them automatic Scottish citizenship. [The same may apply to
those born outside Scotland of Scottish-born patents.]

After independence, those born in Scotland will be subject to the same
UK rules as for other people born of UK citizens in foreign countries -
which, I believe, will also make them UK citizens (certainly if both
parents are UK citizens) - although they will probably, of right, also
have Scottish citizenship.

So, it could be a long time before there will be any Scots-only Scots,
and therefore there will probably be no desperate rush to apply for
Scottish passports (especially as they will undoubtedly cost the
applicant money).






--
Ian

On Wed, 10 Sep 2014 19:16:40 +0100, Peter Duncanson
wrote:


which TV programmes they'll be able to watch and whether they'll
still need to pay a licence to London to watch them,

BBC likely to go encrypted and you will have to pay for a card.

What if your TV receiver doesn't have a card slot?

You would have to buy a suitable STB.

I think I probably wouldn't bother.

Rod.

On 10/09/2014 16:14, NY wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Maybe they can exchange them for a Scottish version.
Is there not also a certain place in Scotland which the Queen owns and
has spent much time there? Presumably as maybe she will not be the
Queen of Scotland the tax arrangements on that estate might need to
alter.

I was musing the fact that there are probably almost as many scottish
people in the uk as there are English in scotland.
And what that might mean for the future. I mean look what happened in
Ukraine with Russians in Ukraine and no doubt Ukrainians now being
blackballed in Russia.

Its all very very infantile.
At them moment and in the past any disaster which has happened in
Sotland has been sorted out by the English, however will we be so keen
to help if they want to go it alone?

I wonder what passports for Scottish people will say if independence
goes ahead. Presumably Scottish people's nationality will no longer be
"British" (or "UK" as America insists you write on one of their
immigration forms). Will they have to have their passports re-issued by
a Scottish passport office and with nationality "Scottish"?

I wonder if anyone has worked out just how much Salmond's proposals will
cost in all the bureaucratic changes like this. And who will pay? Will
rUK be expected to contribute or will it come entirely out of the
Scottish "purse" (ie to be paid by Scottish taxpayers)?

I wonder what Labour and Lib Dem feel about the split, given that all
the Labour and Lib Dem MPs in Scotland will no longer be part of the rUK
parliament (by contrast, there is only Conservative MP that would be
lost in the split).

If people vote in the next election as they did in the 2010 one, then
there are 41 fewer Labour, 11 fewer Lib Dem and 1 fewer Conservative.
There are also 6 SNP. That's a total of 59 fewer MPs.

So the results would be (sorry for the maths, Brian - I hope this makes
sense to your screen reader)

Conservative: 307 - 1 = 306
Labour: 258 - 41 = 217
Lib Dem: 57 - 11 = 46

There would be 650 - 59 = 591 so the "winning post" would be 591/2 = 295
(call it 296 to be certain that it's a majority).


So that would convert a hung parliament into a clear result - goodbye
coalition.

Of course it is a *big* assumption that people would vote the same way :-)



I hope the result of the referendum is clear cut: although I'm hoping
that Scotland votes NO, a clear YES result would be better than a 51% no
/ 49% yes (or a 49% no / 51% yes) because that means that half the
electorate feel aggrieved by the result. I pity Salmond trying to lead a
Scottish government when just under half the people disagree with what
he's done to the country. That's probably his biggest sin - that he's
polarised the country and it looks as if there are going to be a lot of
****ed-off Scots either way.
After a NO vote would there be any point of voting SNP in Scottish
Elections?
No one has recently raised the point that some European countries like
Spain have regions wanting independence and will not vote for an
independent Scotland joining the EU.
Derek

On 10/09/2014 21:05, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , NY
writes





I wonder what passports for Scottish people will say if independence
goes ahead. Presumably Scottish people's nationality will no longer be
"British" (or "UK" as America insists you write on one of their
immigration forms). Will they have to have their passports re-issued
by a Scottish passport office and with nationality "Scottish"?

I guess the situation will be as follows:

After independence, all Scots born in the Scotland before independence
will remain UK citizens. Presumably the Scottish government will choose
to grant them automatic Scottish citizenship. [The same may apply to
those born outside Scotland of Scottish-born patents.]

After independence, those born in Scotland will be subject to the same
UK rules as for other people born of UK citizens in foreign countries -
which, I believe, will also make them UK citizens (certainly if both
parents are UK citizens) - although they will probably, of right, also
have Scottish citizenship.

So, it could be a long time before there will be any Scots-only Scots,
and therefore there will probably be no desperate rush to apply for
Scottish passports (especially as they will undoubtedly cost the
applicant money).

Will I as a Scot living in England and with no intention of ever
returning there have dual citizenship?
Derek

On 10.09.2014 20:15, Peter Duncanson wrote:

There are other disputed borders within the EU. If Scotland were allowed
to join the EU it could cause unrest in all sorts of places. I think
there is a substantial probability that Scotland would be refused entry
to the EU.

The probability exists (especially since Spain would not want to
encourage the Catalans to follow Scotland). But the EU would lose its
credibility if it would refuse membership to an independent Scotland.

In my opinion the probability is higher that Scotland would have to
leave the EU if it stays within the UK: Think of the likely outcome of a
UK referendum in 2017 concerning membership in the EU.


In any case even if Scotland where to be allowed into the EU this could
not happen immediately. It might take years. So there would be a time
when the land border between England and Scotland would be an external
border of the EU. There are rules about the EU's external borders that
cannot be changed at will by a border country. The rUK would be
responsible for controlling, and if necessarily patrolling, the border
with Scotland to regulate entry into the EU in accordance with EU rules.
The EU's eastern external border with Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and
Moldova, has fences along it.A fence might be necessary between England
and Scotland to prevent illegal entries into the EU. There would also
need to be sea patrols to prevent illegal crossings by boat from
Scotland to England or Northern Ireland, or even to Wales. There could
be difficulties if people from Scotland try to bypass EU border controls
by travelling via the Isle of Man. That could result in more immigration
controls at those ports and airports in the rUK where passengers arrive
from the IOM.

I am living a few hundred meters close to the external border of the EU,
the German-Swiss border. There are no fences, there are no checks when
crossing the border, and there are no daily border patrols. I have
crossed the border on a daily basis over years, and my ID was checked
maybe once every other year. Even before Switzerland joined the Schengen
treaty, it was easier to cross this EU-external border than entering the
UK from within the EU.

In 2003, a high-ranking officer in Munich (Germany) responsible for
border control had realised that the Swiss-German border is a EU
exterrnal border. He had apparently read the EU rules and interpreted
them literally. As a result, every person that wanted to cross this
border into Germany was checked, and this obviously produced huge
traffic jams. This ugly situation lasted for a few weeks. After heavy
protests from commuters and local business that officer in Munich was
removed from his function. With his successor interpreting EU laws in a
less literal way, crossing the border became as easy again as it had
been for decades.

So there is obviously no need for fences or excessive controls at EU
external borders. In my view, such nightmare scenarios are incredible
and in the end undermine the arguments of the "Better together"
campaign. Would it not be better to create forward-looking scenarios:
What could be achieved in future if the Scots decide to stay within the UK?

Regards,
Uli

In message , Derek F
writes



Will I as a Scot living in England and with no intention of ever
returning there have dual citizenship?

That's probably one of the many questions that Alex Salmond hasn't yet
thought about. I suppose it all depends whether you qualify for Scots
citizenship as will eventually have to be defined by the new independent
Scottish government, The rules could be the same as those the present
rules for UK citizenship, but they could be very relaxed (for example,
you qualify simply if your great grandfather had a friend who liked
haggis).



--
Ian