Digitising Vinyls (OT for uk.tech.digital-tv)

In article om, Rob
wrote:
On 14/11/2011 17:04, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In aweb.com,
wrote:


I accept that by standards of measurement (say distortion, SN ratio)
CD is 'better'.

It is not incorrect (untrue) to say 'I think LP sounds better than
CD'.

Nor is it necessarily "correct". May just be a set of words that fails
to communicate using the basic requirements communication depends upon.


Well, of course, I could be lying, and so forth. As could you in your
refutation.

Rather than inject the implication that anyone is lying, you could just
consider the actual point I made above. If you choice of words fails to
make a distinction necessary for communicating, it can then fail to be
either "correct" or "incorrect". This has been pointed out to you by
various people in various ways. If that continues to have no effect on your
use of language, etc, then others will simply conclude it is a waste of
time trying to make sense of what you say. A response like the one you make
above doesn't help much.

Dogma in the face of clear evidence, by the way, don't convince me :-)

Nor me. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Rob" wrote

Dogma in the face of clear evidence, by the way, don't convince me :-)


"Dogma in the face of clear evidence"? What "dogma"? and what "clear
evidence"?

David.

"Rob" wrote in message
b.com...

It is not incorrect (untrue) to say 'I think LP sounds better than CD'.

It does suggest a fairly gross level of sloppy thinking and/or
indiscriminate listening.

It is tantamount to saying that "All LPs sound the same" and "All CDs sound
the same." Because, that is the only way you can characterize the comparison
between the two groups so simply.

Saying those things requires a fairly monumental lack of discernment for an
audiophile because in fact the normal range of LPs sound more dislike each
other than many of them sound different from the comparable CDs. Ditto for
CDs.

Listening to music is not an absolute. Hence tone controls.

Either a non sequtor or a just plain narrow view of all things audio.

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Andy
Champ
wrote:
On 14/11/2011 17:22, J G Miller wrote:
On Monday, November 14th, 2011, at 16:39:52h +0000, Rob wrote:

It is not incorrect (untrue) to say 'I think LP sounds better than
CD'.

It is incorrect to say that unless you qualify it with the additional

"sounds better *to me* than CD"

because it is impossible for you to know whether or not it sounds
better to somebody else, unless they told you.

He qualified it with "I think". That seems enough.

I disagree.

The assertion "I think A is better than B" could mean either

A) "I think that A is better [in the sense that I like it more ] than B"

or

B) "I think A is better [in the sense that I have clear reasons others can
assess and agree with as a matter of general fact, not personal
preference]
than B"

As soon as someone starts using two words like "prefer" and "better" as if
they were much the same they end up confusing both their attempts to
communicate with others and their own thnking by loosing a distinction
that
turns out to be vital for what is being discussed.

So simply saying "I think" misses the problem. All it does it propagate
the
muddle between personal belief and objectively assessible reality. It ends
up - as Rob has shown - in a descent into ever-more abstracted arguments
about words as a displacement from the initial points being discussed.
Almost literally a withdrawal from a reality that the original confusion
obscured.

One of the things that distinguishes the more insightful people around is
their ability to distinguish between what is best for a given situation, and
what they prefer. For example I might prefer red fire trucks, but if there
is general wisdom that green fire trucks are less likely to have traffic
accidents then I will happily subordinate my preference for red to what
works best in this situation.

On 15/11/2011 12:00, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In raweb.com, Rob
wrote:
On 14/11/2011 17:04, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In aweb.com,
wrote:


I accept that by standards of measurement (say distortion, SN ratio)
CD is 'better'.

It is not incorrect (untrue) to say 'I think LP sounds better than
CD'.

Nor is it necessarily "correct". May just be a set of words that fails
to communicate using the basic requirements communication depends upon.


Well, of course, I could be lying, and so forth. As could you in your
refutation.

Rather than inject the implication that anyone is lying, you could just
consider the actual point I made above. If you choice of words fails to
make a distinction necessary for communicating, it can then fail to be
either "correct" or "incorrect". This has been pointed out to you by
various people in various ways. If that continues to have no effect on your
use of language, etc, then others will simply conclude it is a waste of
time trying to make sense of what you say. A response like the one you make
above doesn't help much.


Yes, but I'm afraid I think you're being a pedant. On the ropes, you
have to pick apart language which, for the most part and in an everyday
context, was perfectly clear.

I'm not attempting to establish any privileged position, and I've
clarified for this thread, several times, that it is no more than a
preference. Albeit one widely shared.

Rob

"Rob" wrote

Yes, but I'm afraid I think you're being a pedant.

Jim isn't a pedant, but he is careful with his use of words to make it clear
what he's trying to say. It's a pity you can neither match that or give him
credit for it.

On the ropes, you
have to pick apart language which, for the most part and in an everyday
context, was perfectly clear.

On the contrary, it was ambiguous.

David.

"Rob" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 12/11/2011 15:19, David Looser wrote:

I don't see how you can disentangle your liking for the LP as a physical
object and as something that triggers feelings of nostalgia in you from
your
preference for the sound it makes.


Well, it's a pretty emphatic experience that I don't feel can be explained
by a bit of cardboard.

I don't remember mentioning cardboard, nor do I remember anyone else doing
so. But if by that you are referring to record sleeves then you are grossly
trivialising my point. You yourself mentioned nostalgia/sentimentality as a
reason why you like vinyl - and that is the point, not cardboard. The like
the *sound* because it is an integral part of the whole vinyl experience for
which you have a nostalgic/sentimental attachment.

And then there's "a pretty emphatic experience". Its unclear what this is
supposed to mean, but I'll guess that you are referring to the experience of
listening to vinyl. (What *any* vinyl, regardless of what's recorded on it?
how amazingly undiscriminating you are!)

A dictionary definition of "emphatic" is:

1. uttered, or to be uttered, with emphasis; strongly expressive.

2. using emphasis in speech or action.

So can you explain how the experience of listening to music can be "uttered
with emphasis"? Perhaps you mean that *you* are emphatic in stating your
preference?

David.

In article m,
Rob wrote:

It is not incorrect (untrue) to say 'I think LP sounds better than CD'.

You might be mistaken though. You might think that you prefer the
sound of LPs to that of CDs, but be unable to distinguish them in a
blind listening. In which case it would not be the *sound* of the LP
that you preferred, but some other aspect of the experience.

It might be simply that in fact you prefer believing that you are
listening to an LP.

-- Richard

On Tuesday, November 15th, 2011 at 09:00:38h +0000,
Jim Lesurf explained:

So simply saying "I think" misses the problem.

Indeed it does and actually adds nothing to the statement,
for if the person did not think, they would not be able to
make such a statement.

However, "I think" is commonly used as a colloquial short
form for "in my opinion" to limit the terms of reference
of their claim and possibly avoid entering into legal
disputes.

This is of course entirely my opinion and should not be
considered expert advice. It is recommended that in all
cases readers should contact certified and trained experts
in the field of linguistics for definitive diagnosis
and effective treatment.

On Tuesday, November 15th, 2011, at 08:04:17h -0500, Arny Krueger suggested:

For example I might prefer red fire trucks, but if there is general
wisdom that green fire trucks are less likely to have traffic accidents

Studies show that yellow (actually lime yellow) is the best choice of
color for emergency service vehicles.


http://www.apa.ORG/research/action/lime.aspx

http://www.firerescue1.COM/fire-products/fire-apparatus/articles/831990-70s-throwback-Lime-yellow-fire-trucks-fade-out/


It would be most instructive to learn if the number of accidents involving
buses and streetcars has increased markedly in the Brussels Hoofdstedelijk Gewest
with the change of livery of MIVB [STIB] vehicles from yellow


http://www.flickr.COM/photos/arthur-a/2445765938/

http://www.flickr.COM/photos/arthur-a/2332163495/


to gray with brown trim.


http://www.flickr.COM/photos/[email protected]/6056023306/

http://www.flickr.COM/photos/mijack1985/5400800664/