Digitising Vinyls (OT for uk.tech.digital-tv)

On 12/11/2011 17:21, Steve Thackery wrote:
Rob wrote:


Er. Find one occasion when I have stated that analogue is better than
digital, other than in my opinion. I have never stated that. The
'better' comment was simply a mixture of lost context ('to me') and
poor writing.

Hey, guys! He's changing his position, at last! Mind you, not to "I was
wrong to use that expression", but to "I never said that (at least I
never meant it)".

Probably the best we can hope for.....


Again and as usual, open to suggestion :-)

Rob

On 12/11/2011 15:19, David Looser wrote:
wrote in message
eb.com...
On 12/11/2011 10:16, David Looser wrote:

Apart from your hearing, which I doubt is as "special" as you'd like to
believe, you've explained it. Its all about nostalgia and a liking for
the
physical object of the LP. But you've then decided that you need a more
"respectable" reason to prefer vinyl, so have persuaded yourself that
vinyl
sounds "better", and ,since you now believe that, it does, to you.


Well, I don't think it's about those things alone.

We'll just have to agree to differ on that one.

It's just too marked. I think they are significant variables, though.

I don't see how you can disentangle your liking for the LP as a physical
object and as something that triggers feelings of nostalgia in you from your
preference for the sound it makes.


Well, it's a pretty emphatic experience that I don't feel can be
explained by a bit of cardboard.

Don't think my hearing is in any way 'special' by the way!

Don't you? in another post you suggested you would be able to hear
unmeasurable differences.


Yes, although I did say that from a limited understanding of what
'technical measurement' is. From what little I know it's an experiment
I'd be interested in.

Rob

On 12/11/2011 15:44, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:34:42 +0000, wrote:

On 12/11/2011 14:50, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:30:23 +0000, wrote:

On 12/11/2011 09:57, Steve Thackery wrote:
Rob wrote:

I was only ever speaking of my own preference. Habit and social
circles I suppose.

Yes, yes, we know! But that is NOT the same as "better"!!


Even with the prefix 'I think'? Which you must surely realise was implied.

Rob

No, not even with the "I think" prefix. If you think it, you
presumably have some evidence that makes you think it. The problem
here as has now been pointed out ad nauseam is the use of words lite
"better".


I suspect the problem here is the subject? If I said 'I think strawberry
jam is better than raspberry' you wouldn't take that as an absolute,
universal statement. Would you?

But if I say 'I think LP is better than CD' that's a problem? Because CD
is technologically superior? Therefore I can't think that because it's
empirically incorrect?

If that is your line of thinking then yes, there is a problem.

Rob


Exactly that. Adding "I think" in front of a factually incorrect
statement leaves the listener with a problem. Do you smile politely
and move away, or do you challenge? At a party the moving away option
is always there, but here there is but one conversation, and if it is
to move ahead the error or misconception must be dealt with first.


I think we're at the crux of what could politely be called a
disagreement. I'm not going to accept something as 'true' simply because
you say it is.

I accept that by standards of measurement (say distortion, SN ratio) CD
is 'better'.

It is not incorrect (untrue) to say 'I think LP sounds better than CD'.
Listening to music is not an absolute. Hence tone controls.

If you (etc) can't move from that point it's a pretty pointless discussion.

Rob

In article m,
Rob wrote:


I accept that by standards of measurement (say distortion, SN ratio) CD
is 'better'.

It is not incorrect (untrue) to say 'I think LP sounds better than CD'.

Nor is it necessarily "correct". May just be a set of words that fails to
communicate using the basic requirements communication depends upon.

Listening to music is not an absolute. Hence tone controls.

And attempts at analogy may or may not be relevant. :-)

If you (etc) can't move from that point it's a pretty pointless discussion.

Your own behaviour exhibits "can't move". That is part of why what looked
like a 'discussion' became pointless as no meaning was shared and agreed.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On Monday, November 14th, 2011, at 16:39:52h +0000, Rob wrote:

It is not incorrect (untrue) to say 'I think LP sounds better than CD'.

It is incorrect to say that unless you qualify it with the additional

"sounds better *to me* than CD"

because it is impossible for you to know whether or not it sounds better
to somebody else, unless they told you.

Listening to music is not an absolute. Hence tone controls.

Normally the best position for tone controls is in the off-position.

The problem arises if the room acoustics or the hearing deficiencies
of the listener are distorting the sound and then what is required is
not just a tone control but an equalizer.

Incidentally this whole discussion is rather pointless unless you
finally explain WHY you think vinyl sounds better to you than CD.

"Rob" wrote

It is not incorrect (untrue) to say 'I think LP sounds better than CD'.
Listening to music is not an absolute. Hence tone controls.


Neither the LP nor the CD is "music", nor are they musical instruments.
Rather they are simply technical means of transferring music from the master
recording to the listener. So the decision as to which is "better" can only
be made by comparing the result to the master recording. Whether you feel
that one sounds "nicer" than the other is neither here nor there.

David.

On 14/11/2011 17:22, J G Miller wrote:
On Monday, November 14th, 2011, at 16:39:52h +0000, Rob wrote:

It is not incorrect (untrue) to say 'I think LP sounds better than CD'.

It is incorrect to say that unless you qualify it with the additional

"sounds better *to me* than CD"

because it is impossible for you to know whether or not it sounds better
to somebody else, unless they told you.

He qualified it with "I think". That seems enough.


Listening to music is not an absolute. Hence tone controls.

Normally the best position for tone controls is in the off-position.

I leave mine at the centre position. I don't want to turn the bass or
treble off


The problem arises if the room acoustics or the hearing deficiencies
of the listener are distorting the sound and then what is required is
not just a tone control but an equalizer.

Incidentally this whole discussion is rather pointless unless you
finally explain WHY you think vinyl sounds better to you than CD.

He won't know. Any more than I know why I prefer one style of music to
another.

Andy

In article , Andy
Champ
wrote:
On 14/11/2011 17:22, J G Miller wrote:
On Monday, November 14th, 2011, at 16:39:52h +0000, Rob wrote:

It is not incorrect (untrue) to say 'I think LP sounds better than
CD'.

It is incorrect to say that unless you qualify it with the additional

"sounds better *to me* than CD"

because it is impossible for you to know whether or not it sounds
better to somebody else, unless they told you.

He qualified it with "I think". That seems enough.

I disagree.

The assertion "I think A is better than B" could mean either

A) "I think that A is better [in the sense that I like it more ] than B"

or

B) "I think A is better [in the sense that I have clear reasons others can
assess and agree with as a matter of general fact, not personal preference]
than B"

As soon as someone starts using two words like "prefer" and "better" as if
they were much the same they end up confusing both their attempts to
communicate with others and their own thnking by loosing a distinction that
turns out to be vital for what is being discussed.

So simply saying "I think" misses the problem. All it does it propagate the
muddle between personal belief and objectively assessible reality. It ends
up - as Rob has shown - in a descent into ever-more abstracted arguments
about words as a displacement from the initial points being discussed.
Almost literally a withdrawal from a reality that the original confusion
obscured.


Listening to music is not an absolute. Hence tone controls.

Normally the best position for tone controls is in the off-position.

I leave mine at the centre position. I don't want to turn the bass or
treble off

I adjust the ones on my kit as and when I fancy.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On 14/11/2011 17:04, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In aweb.com,
wrote:


I accept that by standards of measurement (say distortion, SN ratio) CD
is 'better'.

It is not incorrect (untrue) to say 'I think LP sounds better than CD'.

Nor is it necessarily "correct". May just be a set of words that fails to
communicate using the basic requirements communication depends upon.


Well, of course, I could be lying, and so forth. As could you in your
refutation.

Listening to music is not an absolute. Hence tone controls.

And attempts at analogy may or may not be relevant. :-)


Analogy is one of the few mechanisms I have - not being technically able.

If you (etc) can't move from that point it's a pretty pointless discussion.

Your own behaviour exhibits "can't move". That is part of why what looked
like a 'discussion' became pointless as no meaning was shared and agreed.


I'm quite happy to move given a good reason. If you'd like me to try and
clarify any terms or words, ask away.

Dogma in the face of clear evidence, by the way, don't convince me :-)

Rob

On Nov 11, 10:16*am, Rob wrote:

But I think everyone would agree analogue and digital sound different.

No, I have a (very) few records and CDs of the same music that sound
identical (except during the "silence" between tracks). Proves it can
be done. I have other records and CDs of the same music that sound
completely different - but then in some cases I have the same music on
two different LPs or two different CDs that sounds different on the
same format.

I have hundreds of digital copies of records, made by myself, that
sound identical to the record.

Cheers,
David.