Homeplugs

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

By including the "domatically" modifier your assertion
becomes one that - by virtue of including that word - becomes "TRUE"
regardless of if either "position" is the correct one. Any "case" would
depend on evidence, not "dogma".

Yes, but we DON'T HAVE the evidence yet*. Thus, taking either position
inflexibly IS dogmatic in this case. The point remains: neither side should
be dogmatic in their view until we've got the proper evidence. That is why
I mention it: because there is plenty of dogmatism but a lack of evidence in
this debate.

You
are projecting the assumption that "dogma" is the reason for what others
have said into the central issue.

That's right - dogma is the reason. If anyone here has an ardently pro-RSGB
position, or an ardently pro-Homeplug position - they are being dogmatic,
because there currently isn't enough evidence to support either view.

This plays a rhetoric trick of the kind
familiar to politicians and undergrad debaters. :-)

Nope: it's a fact, not a rhetoric trick. Some people in this debate have
been dogmatic by making assertions without supporting evidence.

Anyway, this must be incredibly boring for everyone else! I hereby invite
you to have the last word :-)

SteveT


*It occurs to me that you might better understand where I'm coming from if
you looked at some of the source documentation. See:

http://www.nutwooduk.co.uk/default.aspx?id=17

It's fascinating stuff, albeit distinctly one-sided.

In article , Steve Thackery
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

By including the "domatically" modifier your assertion becomes one that
- by virtue of including that word - becomes "TRUE" regardless of if
either "position" is the correct one. Any "case" would depend on
evidence, not "dogma".

Yes, but we DON'T HAVE the evidence yet*. Thus, taking either position
inflexibly IS dogmatic in this case. The point remains: neither side
should be dogmatic in their view until we've got the proper evidence.
That is why I mention it: because there is plenty of dogmatism but a
lack of evidence in this debate.

You are projecting the assumption that "dogma" is the reason for what
others have said into the central issue.

That's right - dogma is the reason. If anyone here has an ardently
pro-RSGB position, or an ardently pro-Homeplug position - they are being
dogmatic, because there currently isn't enough evidence to support
either view.

writing as someone who is neither a Radio Amateur or a Homeplug user, I
suggest that there is evidence; The Homeplug have CE approval.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

Jim Lesurf wrote:

In article , Ian Jackson
wrote:
In message , Steve Thackery
writes


One of the main problems with 'compliance testing' this sort of
equipment is that the majority of the radiation comes from the mains
wiring, and not the equipment itself.

While various simulations of typical installations can be carried out,
no matter how the equipment is itself designed, or what specification it
meets, you have little control over the real culprit, ie the mains
wiring.

The above is what would concern me. I've recently been looking into mains
RFI and 'filters' from the POV of audio gear in the home. What has struck
me is that the mains system has no well defined behaviour at RF since it
simply isn't meant for that process.

The consequence is that what happens will vary unpredictably from one
mains socket to another, and may change as various items are switched
on/off or wiring in rooms moved from place to place. What happens in one
room may change as something alters next door even if that isn't the
actual source since all the impedances are wildly mistmatched, radiate,
etc.

Nor is the system in practice a simple 2-wire balanced one. There are
three wires in a given house, no way of ensuring balanced RF behaviour,
and a complex unterminated set of wiring. RF nightmare.

Slainte,

Jim


It seems to me that one glaring problem is the standard "loop-in"
arrangement for wiring lights. Live and neutral, which may be reasonably
balanced from an RF viewpoint, come in to the ceiling rose but live on its
own then branches off to the switch and (as switched live), back to the
rose.

Depending on the frequency and the distance from the rose to the switch, we
could call it a whip or a long-wire aerial.

The only saving grace is the hope that the PLC signal is going to be
attenuated as it passes from the ring main to the lighting circuits at the
consumer unit but I wouldn't like to count on that.


--
Steve Hayes, South Wales, UK
----Remove colours from reply address----

In article , Steve Thackery
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


Anyway, this must be incredibly boring for everyone else! I hereby
invite you to have the last word :-)

Aardvark.

I prefer the first word. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article , charles
wrote:


writing as someone who is neither a Radio Amateur or a Homeplug user, I
suggest that there is evidence; The Homeplug have CE approval.

Your argument was presumably the one used to allow smoking to spread as a
legal and 'safe' activity for so long. Ditto for many other activities. Not
clear how that would be "evidence" for anything more than a state of mind
or opinion though.

Millions believe in various specific religions. Does that constitute
"evidence" that they are *all* TRUE? Seems a weird definion of "evidence"to
me - unless just "evidence" that the belief is held.,,

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 14:07:31 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article , Ian Jackson
wrote:
In message , Steve Thackery
writes


One of the main problems with 'compliance testing' this sort of
equipment is that the majority of the radiation comes from the mains
wiring, and not the equipment itself.

While various simulations of typical installations can be carried out,
no matter how the equipment is itself designed, or what specification it
meets, you have little control over the real culprit, ie the mains
wiring.

The above is what would concern me. I've recently been looking into mains
RFI and 'filters' from the POV of audio gear in the home. What has struck
me is that the mains system has no well defined behaviour at RF since it
simply isn't meant for that process.

The consequence is that what happens will vary unpredictably from one mains
socket to another, and may change as various items are switched on/off or
wiring in rooms moved from place to place. What happens in one room may
change as something alters next door even if that isn't the actual source
since all the impedances are wildly mistmatched, radiate, etc.

Nor is the system in practice a simple 2-wire balanced one. There are three
wires in a given house, no way of ensuring balanced RF behaviour, and a
complex unterminated set of wiring. RF nightmare.

Our old house had a combination of ring main and spur circuits (some
very old).

When I first got ADSL it would fall over whenever the doorbell rang.
The doorbell was on a twisted pair which ran close to the BT line.
This never had any effect on the voice phone.

Moving one of the cables sorted it, but I can imagine this sort of
interraction becoming not uncommon using power cables within the house
for data, especially in such older properties with older wiring

In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:
In article , charles
wrote:


writing as someone who is neither a Radio Amateur or a Homeplug user, I
suggest that there is evidence; The Homeplug have CE approval.

Your argument was presumably the one used to allow smoking to spread as a
legal and 'safe' activity for so long. Ditto for many other activities.
Not clear how that would be "evidence" for anything more than a state of
mind or opinion though.

CE approval is not a "state of mind". It's a fact.

Millions believe in various specific religions. Does that constitute
"evidence" that they are *all* TRUE? Seems a weird definion of
"evidence"to me - unless just "evidence" that the belief is held.,,

Slainte,

Jim

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:46:24 +0100, charles
wrote:

writing as someone who is neither a Radio Amateur or a Homeplug user, I
suggest that there is evidence; The Homeplug have CE approval.

You of course are quite correct.
I do use Homeplugs (I have 6 of them) and they work for me.
Don't much care for anyone else's argument about it, especially crazy
analogies about smoking and religion.
While they are legal, I will continue to use them and to hell with any
inferred interference to others.

In article , PajaP
scribeth thus
On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:46:24 +0100, charles
wrote:

writing as someone who is neither a Radio Amateur or a Homeplug user, I
suggest that there is evidence; The Homeplug have CE approval.

You of course are quite correct.
I do use Homeplugs (I have 6 of them) and they work for me.
Don't much care for anyone else's argument about it, especially crazy
analogies about smoking and religion.
While they are legal, I will continue to use them and to hell with any
inferred interference to others.

Interfere not with others lest they shalt interfere with thee;;!...

...amen..
--
Tony Sayer

On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 09:36:49 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

In article , PajaP
scribeth thus
On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:46:24 +0100, charles
wrote:

writing as someone who is neither a Radio Amateur or a Homeplug user, I
suggest that there is evidence; The Homeplug have CE approval.

You of course are quite correct.
I do use Homeplugs (I have 6 of them) and they work for me.
Don't much care for anyone else's argument about it, especially crazy
analogies about smoking and religion.
While they are legal, I will continue to use them and to hell with any
inferred interference to others.

Interfere not with others lest they shalt interfere with thee;;!...

..amen..

"Do unto others before they do unto you".