HDCP "Legacy" Issues

"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:

I've never seen or heard of a standard analog VHS VCR affected by
CGMS-A.
Plus, the OP stated that his warning message was a 65511 HDCP DLG
message.

Analog VCR's are, however, affected by Macrovision, and it appears that
Macrovision can be used to inhibit analog copying of digital signals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrovision

"A DVD recorder receiving a data stream encoded with Macrovision's legacy
analog copy protection (ACP) signal will simply display a message saying
the source is "copy-protected", and will pause the recording. This is
achieved through a signal implanted within the offscreen range (vertical
blanking interval) of the video signal—either physically recorded
directly on the tape (as with VHS) or created on playback by a chip in
the player (as with DVDs) or the digital cable/satellite box (as with all
HDTV programs being down-converted to standard definition)."

Pause the DVD recorder. You left out the effects on VHS:

"Macrovision inserts pulses into this non-displayed area. These signals
cause
the automatic gain control on the recording VCR to compensate for the
varying
strength. This makes the recorded picture wildly change brightness,
rendering
it unwatchable."

Hardly what the OP related.

It's Wikipedia, so I'll try to find a more concrete/less subject to
change source. If the Wikipedia source is correct, then it would seem
that the cable box may support ACP, and if it does, then it could be
generating the error message screen to send as video to the recording
device (in this case, an analog VCR).

The OP related that there was *no* cable box - just the cable plugged
directly into the TV/VCR.

See my "final" response elsewhere in this thread (and thanks again for the
help/interest).

dave

"Dave Lee" wrote in message
m...
Attached

I should have added that the 'event' that seemed to trigger the 'message
flash' (that I can't reproduce) was a channel change via the cable box.

dave


"Dave Lee" wrote in message
m...
Attached

Here is some interesting/additional information.

1) One reason that we have this oddball TV/VHS thing is that my wife
knows how to program it (she does over half the programming and mostly
drives TV watching in our house - thank God she is a golf fan). I recall
about a month ago (second time that the oddball message appeared instead
of video), absolutely believing that the show had been recorded in the
'no box path' on the combo TV/VHS. I questioned my wife very hard on this
(again) and she now admits that she only "probably thinks" that was the
case (as opposed to being recorded on a different VHS off the A/V outputs
of our cable box). I honestly don't know if she said this to get me to
leave her alone, or if that is what she really thinks.

2) I was messing around with the settop box to VHS (via A/V) path this
morning. Twice (when viewing the TV screen on the signal being put out by
the VHS, but not recording anything on VHS), I saw the offending message
"flash" VERY briefly. Not long enough to be able to read it, but it
certainly had the same 'black top and orange bottom' look that the
message has. I can't reproduce this (and I had no trouble recording that
channel on the VHS box that is attached to the settop box.

FYI, but if this has only happened when connected via settop box it at
least looks technically possible (and fixable by TimeWarner, in
principle). But I still wonder if that error message isn't encoded
somewhere in the digital signal and was accidently put into the analog
stream and picked up by whatever copy protection mechanism exists in VHS
(I think there are some - or at least were some).

FYI.

dave

"Dave Lee" wrote in message
m...
I am assuming that I am having unintended HDCP issues when using my
(VERY old) VHS recorder(s). We use our VHS (2 of them actually) to
occasionally record shows (not HD, obviously) for viewing later. In one
case we are recording directly off Time Warner cable to the "Cable In"
input to a VHS recorder. In the other case it is an AV set-top box
output to AV input to another (old) VHS box.

I would guess that 10% of the time when we try to record something we
get the audio and the video is just a screen with the (mostly not
readable) error message number 65511 HDCP DLG and text saying that this
program cannot be viewed through a DVI input, please use another input
(or something like that).

Of course the boxes that we are using were built before a DVI
specification even existed. So I assume that we are being victimized
with unintended consequences of HDCP protection and I also assume that
there is nothing that can be done about this.

But is there any way to know in advance which shows will present this
problem? My wife enjoys the show "NUMBERS" and we regularly record it
for later viewing. Last Friday's show suddenly presented the dreaded
6551 error message. Is this predictable?

Thanks.

dave


This is now repeatable (at least 2 times on 2 different stations on 2
different days).

1) I now believe I was just wrong when I assumed that "White Collar" had
been recorded from my "no cable box" path.

2) This seems to occur consistently with the following

1) [CableBoxAVOutput] - VHS

2) TURN THE TV OFF (TV driven from an HDMI output - the only other output
from the cable box)

When the TV is on, no problem. Turn the TV off and you get the 65511 HDCP
problem. Turn the TV back on, the HDCP message goes away and recording
resumes normally.

I do believe that this is a Time Warner problem.

Thanks again to all.

dave

RickMerrill wrote (in part):

Maybe you know why my ch 4-1 has vanished?

:-)

Sure, I'll take a stab at it. Without more information, my best guess
is that it's an NBC affiliate, and Leno leading into local news put
them out of business 8-)

Del Mibbler

Dave Lee wrote:

This is now repeatable (at least 2 times on 2 different stations on 2
different days).

1) I now believe I was just wrong when I assumed that "White Collar" had
been recorded from my "no cable box" path.

2) This seems to occur consistently with the following

1) [CableBoxAVOutput] - VHS

2) TURN THE TV OFF (TV driven from an HDMI output - the only other
output from the cable box)

Ah, TV connected via HDMI. Important information not previously reported.

When the TV is on, no problem. Turn the TV off and you get the 65511
HDCP problem. Turn the TV back on, the HDCP message goes away and
recording resumes normally.

Yeah...HDMI is "funny" that way.

I do believe that this is a Time Warner problem.

Or the two stations involved. Coin flip.

This is now repeatable (at least 2 times on 2 different stations on 2
different days).

1) I now believe I was just wrong when I assumed that "White Collar" had
been recorded from my "no cable box" path.

2) This seems to occur consistently with the following

1) [CableBoxAVOutput] - VHS

2) TURN THE TV OFF (TV driven from an HDMI output - the only other output
from the cable box)

When the TV is on, no problem. Turn the TV off and you get the 65511 HDCP
problem. Turn the TV back on, the HDCP message goes away and recording
resumes normally.

I do believe that this is a Time Warner problem.

Thanks again to all.

dave

Thanks for verifying how easy it is to get "techies" to chase their
tails;-0)

It's not a TWC problem, per se. In the early 2000s, our cable
carrier, then Adelphia, went digital - I immediately gave away my
analog only, unupgradable, purchased TiVo with lifetime guide and
extended maintenance contract in favor of a cableco rented HD-DVR with
its in-home maintenance or replacement included in the rental price
(which was less than TiVo's monthly guide fee). The new unit was a
Motorola HD-DVR sporting Moxi software. At first, it was used with
the analog TV via component connection and a second analog, composite
connection fed a Hauppauge capture device.

But that TV was soon replaced with a digital monitor sporting HDMI and
DVI inputs in addition to component and composite. When the Moxi/Moto
unit was connected digitally, and the user setup was invoked to enable
this, all analog outputs were shut down. There was no message but the
user manual specified that this was what the device would do.

Since then, TWC has acquired Adelphia's plant and customers in this
area. Newer, bigger HDD Moto and SciAtl HD-DVRs are used by them. We
now have 2 Motos and the situation is similar to yours. Because we
use Hauppauge's component HDTV capture device, we can not use HDMI or
DVI with that HD-DVR.

The only thing preventing anyone telling you of this in response to
your very first post was your unchallenged recollection of where one
or more of the messages came from. But it sure made for an
interesting thread from those who swallowed your initial story.

wrote:

The only thing preventing anyone telling you of this in response to
your very first post was your unchallenged recollection of where one
or more of the messages came from. But it sure made for an
interesting thread from those who swallowed your initial story.

"Unchallenged" ??

He was asked numerous times if he was *sure* of the "cable directly
into the VCR" wiring.

"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
wrote:

The only thing preventing anyone telling you of this in response to
your very first post was your unchallenged recollection of where one
or more of the messages came from. But it sure made for an
interesting thread from those who swallowed your initial story.

"Unchallenged" ??

He was asked numerous times if he was *sure* of the "cable directly
into the VCR" wiring.

The "challenging" needed to be with my wife. In that area I think all will
agree that caution is in order :-)

dave

Dave Lee wrote:

The only thing preventing anyone telling you of this in response to
your very first post was your unchallenged recollection of where one
or more of the messages came from. But it sure made for an
interesting thread from those who swallowed your initial story.

"Unchallenged" ??

He was asked numerous times if he was *sure* of the "cable directly
into the VCR" wiring.

The "challenging" needed to be with my wife. In that area I think all
will agree that caution is in order :-)

Sigh...agreed.

"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
Dave Lee wrote:

The only thing preventing anyone telling you of this in response to
your very first post was your unchallenged recollection of where one
or more of the messages came from. But it sure made for an
interesting thread from those who swallowed your initial story.

"Unchallenged" ??

He was asked numerous times if he was *sure* of the "cable directly
into the VCR" wiring.

The "challenging" needed to be with my wife. In that area I think all
will agree that caution is in order :-)

Sigh...agreed.

For the record I called Time Warner customer service again yesterday. Unlike
my previous encounter (where I had incorrect diagnostic information but was
successful in getting through to "intelligent resources", this time I ha
correct diagnostic information, but was totally unsuccessful in getting
through to "intelligent resources".) The best that I could do was to set up
a service appoint (which doesn't seem to be the logical next step to me, but
maybe it will lead to the right next step).

That won't happen until Tuesday (1/19).

dave

"Dave Lee" wrote in message
m...


"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
Dave Lee wrote:

The only thing preventing anyone telling you of this in response to
your very first post was your unchallenged recollection of where one
or more of the messages came from. But it sure made for an
interesting thread from those who swallowed your initial story.

"Unchallenged" ??

He was asked numerous times if he was *sure* of the "cable directly
into the VCR" wiring.

The "challenging" needed to be with my wife. In that area I think all
will agree that caution is in order :-)

Sigh...agreed.

For the record I called Time Warner customer service again yesterday.
Unlike my previous encounter (where I had incorrect diagnostic information
but was successful in getting through to "intelligent resources", this
time I ha correct diagnostic information, but was totally unsuccessful in
getting through to "intelligent resources".) The best that I could do was
to set up a service appoint (which doesn't seem to be the logical next
step to me, but maybe it will lead to the right next step).

That won't happen until Tuesday (1/19).

dave

The TWC service guy showed up today. He verified that this is a problem "on
there end". Apparently their box' hardware will not properly drive the A/V
outputs when there is an HDMI cable plugged into the cable box and TV set
(set turned off). From what he said this is the case with their old Passport
software as well as their newer "Mystro" software, so it probably is a
firmware issue in their hardware.

The solutions are to either use component cables to drive my TV set (in
place of HDMI) or to connect my VHS recorder via coax to the VHS tuner.
Apparently the RF outputs from our cable box don't have this issue. This
will probably be my choice. And why they had to send a service person out to
tell me this ..... who knows.

dave