HDCP "Legacy" Issues

"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
UCLAN wrote:

Thanks for the comments. THe 'NUMBERS" event that I referenced was off a
set-top box (Time Warner cable box). However another show (it was a USA
network show - can't recall the name) was recorded directly from the
Cable coax to the 'Cable In' on a late 1990's vintage VHS recorder (and
played there - no cable box).

And it has happened that way more than once.

Are you saying that you got HDCP error messages with the cable directly
plugged into a VHS VCR? Don't know how. Was this a stand alone VCR, or
a combination DVD recorder/VCR? Your stand alone VCR shouldn't be even
be able to generate a HDCP error on-screen graphic. Please double check
this with your incoming cable - 1 to 2 splitter - VCR.

And, I might add, you might want to give us the make/model number of the
offending VCR.

It is Phillips/Magnavox CCA194AT "Color TV with Built In VCR".

dave3

Dave Lee wrote:


"RickMerrill" wrote in message
...
Dave Lee wrote:
I am assuming that I am having unintended HDCP issues when using my
(VERY old) VHS recorder(s).

Your VHS does not HAVE HDCP, right?

We use our VHS (2 of them actually) to
occasionally record shows (not HD, obviously) for viewing later. In one
case we are recording directly off Time Warner cable to the "Cable In"
input to a VHS recorder.

So you are recording Analog, right?


YES


In the other case it is an AV set-top box
output to AV input to another (old) VHS box.

By "set-top box" (STB) do y ou mean an STB provided by your cable
company?

YES




I would guess that 10% of the time when we try to record something we
get the audio and the video is just a screen with the (mostly not
readable) error message number 65511 HDCP DLG and text saying that this
program cannot be viewed through a DVI input, please use another input
(or something like that).

Well, that is not coming from a direct cable connection, unless there
is something else in the circuit upstream from your place.

Of course the boxes that we are using were built before a DVI
specification even existed.

Of course that is so.

So I assume that we are being victimized
with unintended consequences of HDCP protection and I also assume that
there is nothing that can be done about this.

No, I'm afraid not (oops, Now I"M paranoid too!-).

But is there any way to know in advance which shows will present this
problem? My wife enjoys the show "NUMBERS" and we regularly record it
for later viewing. Last Friday's show suddenly presented the dreaded
6551 error message. Is this predictable?

It has happened once when recording "NUMBERS", twice when recording
"White Collar", and maybe twice on a couple of other random shows that I
don't recall.

In ALL of the cases (except for the single/recent NUMBERS case) there
was no SetTopBox in the record or play path.

dave

Well, the TV model you have uses a tuner (in the TV) and sends video
only signals (such as s-video, but not RF) to the VCR component. Soooo
it is perfectly possible for the TV (!) to generate the message that was
recorded on the VCR piece.

Can you tell the TV to tune to EITHER the analog signal or the digital
signal?

"RickMerrill" wrote in message
...
Dave Lee wrote:


"RickMerrill" wrote in message
...
Dave Lee wrote:
I am assuming that I am having unintended HDCP issues when using my
(VERY old) VHS recorder(s).

Your VHS does not HAVE HDCP, right?

We use our VHS (2 of them actually) to
occasionally record shows (not HD, obviously) for viewing later. In one
case we are recording directly off Time Warner cable to the "Cable In"
input to a VHS recorder.

So you are recording Analog, right?


YES


In the other case it is an AV set-top box
output to AV input to another (old) VHS box.

By "set-top box" (STB) do y ou mean an STB provided by your cable
company?

YES




I would guess that 10% of the time when we try to record something we
get the audio and the video is just a screen with the (mostly not
readable) error message number 65511 HDCP DLG and text saying that this
program cannot be viewed through a DVI input, please use another input
(or something like that).

Well, that is not coming from a direct cable connection, unless there
is something else in the circuit upstream from your place.

Of course the boxes that we are using were built before a DVI
specification even existed.

Of course that is so.

So I assume that we are being victimized
with unintended consequences of HDCP protection and I also assume that
there is nothing that can be done about this.

No, I'm afraid not (oops, Now I"M paranoid too!-).

But is there any way to know in advance which shows will present this
problem? My wife enjoys the show "NUMBERS" and we regularly record it
for later viewing. Last Friday's show suddenly presented the dreaded
6551 error message. Is this predictable?

It has happened once when recording "NUMBERS", twice when recording
"White Collar", and maybe twice on a couple of other random shows that I
don't recall.

In ALL of the cases (except for the single/recent NUMBERS case) there
was no SetTopBox in the record or play path.

dave

Well, the TV model you have uses a tuner (in the TV) and sends video only
signals (such as s-video, but not RF) to the VCR component. Soooo it is
perfectly possible for the TV (!) to generate the message that was
recorded on the VCR piece.

Can you tell the TV to tune to EITHER the analog signal or the digital
signal?



Since this TV was built well before there existed a specification for
digital TV (1997 as a guess), I would assume that I cannot do that. It
certainly isn't obvious from the manual or anything on the menu options.

dave

"RickMerrill" wrote in message
...
Dave Lee wrote:


"RickMerrill" wrote in message
...
Dave Lee wrote:
I am assuming that I am having unintended HDCP issues when using my
(VERY old) VHS recorder(s).

Your VHS does not HAVE HDCP, right?

We use our VHS (2 of them actually) to
occasionally record shows (not HD, obviously) for viewing later. In one
case we are recording directly off Time Warner cable to the "Cable In"
input to a VHS recorder.

So you are recording Analog, right?


YES


In the other case it is an AV set-top box
output to AV input to another (old) VHS box.

By "set-top box" (STB) do y ou mean an STB provided by your cable
company?

YES




I would guess that 10% of the time when we try to record something we
get the audio and the video is just a screen with the (mostly not
readable) error message number 65511 HDCP DLG and text saying that this
program cannot be viewed through a DVI input, please use another input
(or something like that).

Well, that is not coming from a direct cable connection, unless there
is something else in the circuit upstream from your place.

Of course the boxes that we are using were built before a DVI
specification even existed.

Of course that is so.

So I assume that we are being victimized
with unintended consequences of HDCP protection and I also assume that
there is nothing that can be done about this.

No, I'm afraid not (oops, Now I"M paranoid too!-).

But is there any way to know in advance which shows will present this
problem? My wife enjoys the show "NUMBERS" and we regularly record it
for later viewing. Last Friday's show suddenly presented the dreaded
6551 error message. Is this predictable?

It has happened once when recording "NUMBERS", twice when recording
"White Collar", and maybe twice on a couple of other random shows that I
don't recall.

In ALL of the cases (except for the single/recent NUMBERS case) there
was no SetTopBox in the record or play path.

dave

Well, the TV model you have uses a tuner (in the TV) and sends video only
signals (such as s-video, but not RF) to the VCR component. Soooo it is
perfectly possible for the TV (!) to generate the message that was
recorded on the VCR piece.

Can you tell the TV to tune to EITHER the analog signal or the digital
signal?



There are a number of subthreads here. In this case "TV" and "VCR" are the
same thing (both functions integrated into a single box - ala' 1997).

dave

Attached

I just got off the phone with Time Warner. While video and digital video are
well out of my area of expertise, I did work in engineering for IBM for 32
years and do have a decent sense of "does this guy/gal know what he/she is
talking about".

It is my judgment that these folks are what I would call "Level II support"
(not the core developers, but able to actually muck around in the code) and
that they are genuinely baffled at what I have experienced.

dave

"Dave Lee" wrote in message
m...
I am assuming that I am having unintended HDCP issues when using my (VERY
old) VHS recorder(s). We use our VHS (2 of them actually) to occasionally
record shows (not HD, obviously) for viewing later. In one case we are
recording directly off Time Warner cable to the "Cable In" input to a VHS
recorder. In the other case it is an AV set-top box output to AV input to
another (old) VHS box.

I would guess that 10% of the time when we try to record something we get
the audio and the video is just a screen with the (mostly not readable)
error message number 65511 HDCP DLG and text saying that this program
cannot be viewed through a DVI input, please use another input (or
something like that).

Of course the boxes that we are using were built before a DVI
specification even existed. So I assume that we are being victimized with
unintended consequences of HDCP protection and I also assume that there is
nothing that can be done about this.

But is there any way to know in advance which shows will present this
problem? My wife enjoys the show "NUMBERS" and we regularly record it for
later viewing. Last Friday's show suddenly presented the dreaded 6551
error message. Is this predictable?

Thanks.

dave

On Jan 11, 6:07*pm, "Dave Lee" wrote:
snip
What is odd here is that it is unlikely that this is what you would
see if
you just watched the show on TV (or there would have been
complaints out the
whazoo). So there is some form of decoding going on inside the VCR
(at least
that seems to be a reasonable assumption, I think).

Only complaints by the folks watching the analog signal. Don't many
use a cable box? What you need to find out from TWC is _where_ your
analog signal is being created which may not be the same feed to all
other analog users.

From another post that I made in another place in this thread....

I just got off the phone with Time Warner. While video and digital
video are
well out of my area of expertise, I did work in engineering for IBM
for 32
years and do have a decent sense of "does this guy/gal know what he/
she is
talking about".

It is my judgment that these folks are what I would call "Level II
support"
(not the core developers, but able to actually muck around in the
code) and
that they are genuinely baffled at what I have experienced.

dave

How old is the VCR? How would it 'know' about HDCP since the only path
into it is analog video? When it 'goes stupid' does it stay that way
for the remainder of the show? I'm afraid the only way to nail it down
for certain is to actually look at the machine while it's in record
AND tune the TV to the same analog channel to double check the
hypothesis. IIRC you mentioned a second show also having problems.
Have you tried any other analog channel recordings? Is it only a few
channels failing or have you had no reason to try others?

G²

Dave Lee wrote:

I believe it to be a cable company problem as your analog VCR has no way
to generate HDCP messages. It can only capture what is on the analog
carrier. Call the cable company and show them the tape if they ask.

What is odd here is that it is unlikely that this is what you would see if
you just watched the show on TV (or there would have been complaints out
the whazoo). So there is some form of decoding going on inside the VCR (at
least that seems to be a reasonable assumption, I think).

From another post that I made in another place in this thread....

I just got off the phone with Time Warner. While video and digital video
are well out of my area of expertise, I did work in engineering for IBM for
32 years and do have a decent sense of "does this guy/gal know what he/she
is talking about".

It is my judgment that these folks are what I would call "Level II support"
(not the core developers, but able to actually muck around in the code)
and that they are genuinely baffled at what I have experienced.

As am I. There is no way an analog TV/VCR combo from the '90s should react
to a digital HDCP flag. Shouldn't happen. I'd say you ought to contact
Philips/Magnavox about the problem.

"G-squared" wrote in message
...
On Jan 11, 6:07 pm, "Dave Lee" wrote:
snip
What is odd here is that it is unlikely that this is what you would
see if
you just watched the show on TV (or there would have been
complaints out the
whazoo). So there is some form of decoding going on inside the VCR
(at least
that seems to be a reasonable assumption, I think).

Only complaints by the folks watching the analog signal. Don't many
use a cable box? What you need to find out from TWC is _where_ your
analog signal is being created which may not be the same feed to all
other analog users.


Most people (IMHO) have one box but multiple TV'es scattered about. The
scattered about TV's are usually "box free".

From another post that I made in another place in this thread....

I just got off the phone with Time Warner. While video and digital
video are
well out of my area of expertise, I did work in engineering for IBM
for 32
years and do have a decent sense of "does this guy/gal know what he/
she is
talking about".

It is my judgment that these folks are what I would call "Level II
support"
(not the core developers, but able to actually muck around in the
code) and
that they are genuinely baffled at what I have experienced.

dave

How old is the VCR? How would it 'know' about HDCP since the only path
into it is analog video? When it 'goes stupid' does it stay that way
for the remainder of the show? I'm afraid the only way to nail it down
for certain is to actually look at the machine while it's in record
AND tune the TV to the same analog channel to double check the
hypothesis. IIRC you mentioned a second show also having problems.
Have you tried any other analog channel recordings? Is it only a few
channels failing or have you had no reason to try others?

G²


The only good news here is that it is not repeatable. WHile that makes it
hard to explore it also means it doesn't happen often (my original concern
was that this was going to become more common and unavoidable). Since I have
experienced it on both CBS and USA, I am going to start 'sampling' those
channels periodically to see if I can find a pattern or something else to go
on here.

And note that it has happened on two different VHS recording devices, so
this issue isn't unique to a single manufacturer.

Thanks again.

dave

"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
Dave Lee wrote:

I believe it to be a cable company problem as your analog VCR has no way
to generate HDCP messages. It can only capture what is on the analog
carrier. Call the cable company and show them the tape if they ask.

What is odd here is that it is unlikely that this is what you would see
if
you just watched the show on TV (or there would have been complaints out
the whazoo). So there is some form of decoding going on inside the VCR
(at
least that seems to be a reasonable assumption, I think).

From another post that I made in another place in this thread....

I just got off the phone with Time Warner. While video and digital video
are well out of my area of expertise, I did work in engineering for IBM
for
32 years and do have a decent sense of "does this guy/gal know what
he/she
is talking about".

It is my judgment that these folks are what I would call "Level II
support"
(not the core developers, but able to actually muck around in the code)
and that they are genuinely baffled at what I have experienced.

As am I. There is no way an analog TV/VCR combo from the '90s should react
to a digital HDCP flag. Shouldn't happen. I'd say you ought to contact
Philips/Magnavox about the problem.

Since I have recorded the problem on a different VHS recorder, it isn't
unique to the Magnavox device. So I've kind of ruled that path out.

Thanks.

dave

G-squared wrote:
On Jan 11, 6:50 am, "Dave wrote:
....

I believe it to be a cable company problem as your analog VCR has no
way to generate HDCP messages. It can only capture what is on the
analog carrier. Call the cable company and show them the tape if they
ask.

G²

Big G, did you notice that the VCR is built-into the TV? That means the
message could come from the TV.

cable==TV==VCR