HDTV Audio and Anti-Glare

UCLAN wrote:
CLicker wrote:

Tuesday, October 20, 2009 3:40 PM

Rick: I don't "do" comcast channels.
(but they happen to be 49 and 50)

Hint: 75.9 & 75.10 are "Comcast channels" as well.

[this is not a response to "uclan"]

To keep the record straight for innocent passers-by,
The "channels" that Comcast ADVERTIZES, such as 43 for CNN,
are better called pseudo-channels. They are whole numbers
and they do not tune to analog cablecasts.



Rick: You "tune" the STB to 49, BUT the box has been trained by
Comcast to know that in my area (E. MA) ESPN is actually on
QAM frequency/channel 75.9.

This would mean that the box translates the incoming signal to its
channel 49, the opposite of what he wrote at 11:14 (above.) It is
also irrelevant to my question of "Clear QAM" on his TV's channel
49 & 50.

That was (and continues to be) my contention: The TV will not tune
"Clear QAM" (or any QAM) on whole number channels. The TV is looking
for AM modulated video carriers and FM modulated audio carriers on
whole number channels, not QAM modulated carriers.

That is correct, but not to the point.

CLicker wrote:

LOL! Wrong about what? I have maintained all along that whole numbers
tuned by a TV like (49 and 50) *cannot* be QAM digital channels since
they are NTSC analog channels. As it turns out, I was right. Or do you
still maintain that his TV was tuning Clear QAM on channels 49 & 50?

Little old lady, clipping out the evidence doesn't make you right;-0)

Evidence of *what* ??

Whole numbers tuned by a TV are most likely NTSC, they are here. Only whole
numbers are displayed by STBs here, yet all of the streams tuned by them
are digital - however the STB will output analog, if one connects via
composite, s-video, or componenet.

The question was *never* whole numbers tuned by a STB. The question concerned
Clear QAM, and if whole number channels *tuned by a TV* could be Clear QAM.

Rick is "tuning" 49 and 50 on his STB - and they'd be digital here in
northern Orange County, CA using TWC digital tuners.

Again, we weren't discussing the cable company's "digital tuner." The
question - once again - was can a TV tune QAM or Clear QAM channels
on whole number channels like 49 and/or 50. I still maintain no!

As cited in the part
of the message you chose to discard, on his TV he's tuning 75.9 and 75.10 -
and you know that from reading the thread. But for some reason known only
to you, you've decided to make up some issue that doesn't exit and argue it
into numbness? There must be a name for this malady, if only I cared;-)

I'll assume you meant "...doesn't exist", but both you and he contended
that a TV could be tuning Clear QAM on whole number channels. My main
point of contention was that it can't:

UCLAN, Oct 22:

You really *don't* understand, do you? Channel 49 on your TV is a
6 MHz wide NTSC analog channel, not even a digital channel. NTSC
video uses AM (amplitude modulation), and its audio uses FM (frequency
modulation.) Only the color sub-carrier uses QAM, and it's analog QAM.

Digital QAM channels have a xx.x or xx-x format on a TV.
Analog channels have whole number channel numbers, with no "." or "-".

UCLAN, Oct 22:

We're talking cable hyperband here. Channel 49 is a 6MHz wide NTSC channel
with the video carrier at 373.25MHz and the audio carrier at 377.75MHz. If
a tuner in a cable ready TV tunes to 49, it tunes to an NTSC analog channel,
period. How you have your remote/tuner set up for OTA is quite irrelevant.
ESPN viewed on channel 49 on a TV is NOT Clear QAM...period.

UCLAN, Oct 23:

State or county doesn't matter. A TV tuning cable band channel 49 WILL
tune a video carrier at 373.75MHz and an audio carrier at 377.75MHz. Can
you imagine buying a TV in New Mexico that had different tuning than one
bought in Virginia. CABLE BOX channels/frequencies may well vary, but not
the NTSC tuners in TVs.

UCLAN, Oct 23:

OK, I'll stop you right there. You're somewhat confused. When a person
tunes his/her TV to cable-band channel 49, his/her TV tunes a video carrier
at 373.25MHz and an audio carrier at 377.75MHz. Whatever the cable company
assigned to those frequencies will be displayed. This is a fixed channel
assignment, and has nothing to do with PSIP. Some additional digital channels
may have been assigned virtual channel numbers 49.1, 49.2, etc., and have
PSIP data identifying them as such, but the whole number channel 49 remains
NTSC on cable tuning TVs. The "xx.1", "xx.2", etc., is the PSIP virtual
channel number. For example on the local cox system: channel 15 is "Azteca"
(Spanish programming) with it's NTSC video and audio sub carriers at 127.25
and 131.75 MHz respectively, while 15.1 is ATSC KPBS-HD at 555 MHz, and 15.2
is "V-Me" at 555 MHz. The main (whole number) channel is NTSC, while the
".xx" channels are ATSC. On a TV, whole number channels are NTSC, not
Clear QAM ATSC.

UCLAN, Oct 23:

We're not talking about NTSC in an HDTV group.

We are if we're talking about a TV tuned to channel 49 or channel 50 on
a cable system. And since you said you were receiving ESPN and ESPN2
in Clear QAM on those channels (which you aren't)...

UCLAN, Oct 25:

Huh? His _TV's_ channel 49 and 50 are analog. Since he was discussing
Clear QAM, he was discussing the TV tuner, not the STB. The sub-channels
were channel 75 sub-channels, unrelated to his TVs channel 49 or 50.

UCLAN, Oct 26:

Channel 49 (without a ".x" or a "-X") on a TV will be tuned to 375MHz in
cable's Hyperband. Channel 49 on the cable supplied STB can be tuned to
anything. That's the difference.

Cable operators are free to put whatever they want wherever they want?
True, but if they want it viewed on a cable-ready TV, channel 49 better
be an NTSC signal on Hyperband 375MHz. On their STB (converter box), they
can put whatever they want, in whatever format they want.

etc.

I'd say that my argument has been pretty consistent, and hardly "an issue
that doesn't exist."

UCLAN wrote:
CLicker wrote:

LOL! Wrong about what? I have maintained all along that whole numbers
tuned by a TV like (49 and 50) *cannot* be QAM digital channels since
they are NTSC analog channels. As it turns out, I was right. Or do
you still maintain that his TV was tuning Clear QAM on channels 49 & 50?

Little old lady, clipping out the evidence doesn't make you right;-0)

Evidence of *what* ??

Whole numbers tuned by a TV are most likely NTSC, they are here. Only
whole
numbers are displayed by STBs here, yet all of the streams tuned by them
are digital - however the STB will output analog, if one connects via
composite, s-video, or componenet.

The question was *never* whole numbers tuned by a STB. The question
concerned
Clear QAM, and if whole number channels *tuned by a TV* could be Clear QAM.

Rick is "tuning" 49 and 50 on his STB - and they'd be digital here in
northern Orange County, CA using TWC digital tuners.

Again, we weren't discussing the cable company's "digital tuner." The
question - once again - was can a TV tune QAM or Clear QAM channels
on whole number channels like 49 and/or 50. I still maintain no!

As cited in the part
of the message you chose to discard, on his TV he's tuning 75.9 and
75.10 -
and you know that from reading the thread. But for some reason known
only
to you, you've decided to make up some issue that doesn't exit and
argue it
into numbness? There must be a name for this malady, if only I cared;-)

I'll assume you meant "...doesn't exist", but both you and he contended
that a TV could be tuning Clear QAM on whole number channels. My main
point of contention was that it can't:

UCLAN, Oct 22:

You really *don't* understand, do you? Channel 49 on your TV is a
6 MHz wide NTSC analog channel, not even a digital channel. NTSC
video uses AM (amplitude modulation), and its audio uses FM (frequency
modulation.) Only the color sub-carrier uses QAM, and it's analog QAM.

Digital QAM channels have a xx.x or xx-x format on a TV.
Analog channels have whole number channel numbers, with no "." or "-".

UCLAN, Oct 22:

We're talking cable hyperband here. Channel 49 is a 6MHz wide NTSC channel
with the video carrier at 373.25MHz and the audio carrier at 377.75MHz. If
a tuner in a cable ready TV tunes to 49, it tunes to an NTSC analog
channel,
period. How you have your remote/tuner set up for OTA is quite irrelevant.
ESPN viewed on channel 49 on a TV is NOT Clear QAM...period.

UCLAN, Oct 23:

State or county doesn't matter. A TV tuning cable band channel 49 WILL
tune a video carrier at 373.75MHz and an audio carrier at 377.75MHz. Can
you imagine buying a TV in New Mexico that had different tuning than one
bought in Virginia. CABLE BOX channels/frequencies may well vary, but not
the NTSC tuners in TVs.

UCLAN, Oct 23:

OK, I'll stop you right there. You're somewhat confused. When a person
tunes his/her TV to cable-band channel 49, his/her TV tunes a video carrier
at 373.25MHz and an audio carrier at 377.75MHz. Whatever the cable company
assigned to those frequencies will be displayed. This is a fixed channel
assignment, and has nothing to do with PSIP. Some additional digital
channels
may have been assigned virtual channel numbers 49.1, 49.2, etc., and have
PSIP data identifying them as such, but the whole number channel 49 remains
NTSC on cable tuning TVs. The "xx.1", "xx.2", etc., is the PSIP virtual
channel number. For example on the local cox system: channel 15 is "Azteca"
(Spanish programming) with it's NTSC video and audio sub carriers at 127.25
and 131.75 MHz respectively, while 15.1 is ATSC KPBS-HD at 555 MHz, and
15.2
is "V-Me" at 555 MHz. The main (whole number) channel is NTSC, while the
".xx" channels are ATSC. On a TV, whole number channels are NTSC, not
Clear QAM ATSC.

UCLAN, Oct 23:

We're not talking about NTSC in an HDTV group.

We are if we're talking about a TV tuned to channel 49 or channel 50 on
a cable system. And since you said you were receiving ESPN and ESPN2
in Clear QAM on those channels (which you aren't)...

UCLAN, Oct 25:

Huh? His _TV's_ channel 49 and 50 are analog. Since he was discussing
Clear QAM, he was discussing the TV tuner, not the STB. The sub-channels
were channel 75 sub-channels, unrelated to his TVs channel 49 or 50.

UCLAN, Oct 26:

Channel 49 (without a ".x" or a "-X") on a TV will be tuned to 375MHz in
cable's Hyperband. Channel 49 on the cable supplied STB can be tuned to
anything. That's the difference.

Cable operators are free to put whatever they want wherever they want?
True, but if they want it viewed on a cable-ready TV, channel 49 better
be an NTSC signal on Hyperband 375MHz. On their STB (converter box), they
can put whatever they want, in whatever format they want.

etc.

I'd say that my argument has been pretty consistent, and hardly "an issue
that doesn't exist."


You sure type a lot about something you totally don't want to
understand. Yes, we could have made things clear to you by stating
"virtual channel 49 a la Comcast listings for my area code" but you may
not know French either.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:31:09 -0700, UCLAN wrote:

CLicker wrote:

However, despite the evidence, you will continue to rant about this
inconsequentiality until everyone else gives up - so that you don't
have to say: I'm sorry, I was wrong.

LOL! Wrong about what? I have maintained all along that whole numbers
tuned by a TV like (49 and 50) *cannot* be QAM digital channels since
they are NTSC analog channels. As it turns out, I was right. Or do you
still maintain that his TV was tuning Clear QAM on channels 49 & 50?

Channels can be ntsc, 8vsb, qam, or any other modulation form. The
channel number is locked to the frequency. So on channel 49 you can have
anything. It's not locked to ntsc. It most certainly can be clear qam. Or
it could be 8vsb, or any one of umpteen other modulations. Now if the
channel info that comes in with the modulation sets it to 49 in the
translation table that the TV stores when it scans the channels, both the
real and translated channel number will be 49. Is that likely to happen?
No, but it is certainly possible. It's also possible that it could be
multiple broadcast and use subchannel numbers in addition to the
translated number. So real channel 49 could have 49.1 through 49.whatever
on it also. The virtual channel numbers are controlled by the broadcaster
and can be anything they want them to be. Of course the receiving set can
also translate their virtual number in it's software. That's why when I
watch channel 4.1 (Fox in Dallas), I simply enter 41 without a separator.
For NBC (5.x) I use 51, 52, etc. and so on and so on.


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On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:57:12 -0700, UCLAN wrote:

Hint: 75.9 & 75.10 are "Comcast channels" as well.

Actually, they aren't. They are virtual channels. Real channels are whole
numbers. Real channels, say 49, can have 1 or more virtual channel
numbers associated with it. Each of the virtual channel numbers would
have a segment of the bit stream, that is all sent on the real channel
number, for its broadcast.

--
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On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:31:23 -0400, RickMerrill wrote:

That was (and continues to be) my contention: The TV will not tune
"Clear QAM" (or any QAM) on whole number channels. The TV is looking
for AM modulated video carriers and FM modulated audio carriers on
whole number channels, not QAM modulated carriers.

That is correct, but not to the point.

Not really. It depends on the TV's software. I use whole numbers for
everything, and I don't even get NTSC, just ATSC. Granted, for most TV's
that would be an accurate statement, but it's not because it isn't
possible.

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RickMerrill wrote:

To keep the record straight for innocent passers-by,
The "channels" that Comcast ADVERTIZES, such as 43 for CNN,
are better called pseudo-channels. They are whole numbers
and they do not tune to analog cablecasts.

?? They are only "pseudo-channels" on a STB. Channel 43 tuned by a
cable-ready TV is hyperband channel 43, is NTSC, and yes...it is analog.

That was (and continues to be) my contention: The TV will not tune
"Clear QAM" (or any QAM) on whole number channels. The TV is looking
for AM modulated video carriers and FM modulated audio carriers on
whole number channels, not QAM modulated carriers.

That is correct, but not to the point.

Again, ?? "Not to the point" ?? For the past week I have been trying to
make that exact point...that video tuned on a TV's channel 49 or 50
cannot be Clear QAM (or unclear QAM.) A QAM channel (as tuned by a TV)
will have a "xx.x" or xx-x" format. I was told that I was wrong in making
that statement. Now you say "That is correct, but not to the point."

Ah...the moving target. I'm through.

Wes Newell wrote:

Hint: 75.9 & 75.10 are "Comcast channels" as well.

Actually, they aren't. They are virtual channels. Real channels are whole
numbers. Real channels, say 49, can have 1 or more virtual channel
numbers associated with it. Each of the virtual channel numbers would
have a segment of the bit stream, that is all sent on the real channel
number, for its broadcast.

75.9 and 75.10 are numbers assigned to those channels *BY COMCAST* That
doesn't qualify them as "Comcast channels" ?? They are more "Comcast
channels than are 49 and 50, which are industry standard channels.

[BTW, I bet you'll find that they're the 9th and 10th channel assigned,
by Comcast, to channel 75 (Ultraband - 531MHz.)

RickMerrill wrote:

You sure type a lot about something you totally don't want to understand.
Yes, we could have made things clear to you by stating "virtual channel 49
a la Comcast listings for my area code" but you may not know French either.

Channel 49 is *NOT* a virtual channel, no matter what language you
mention. Channel 49 is a 6MHz wide channel with an AM video carrier
at 373.25MHz and an FM audio carrier at 377.75MHz.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:34:15 -0700, UCLAN wrote:

Wes Newell wrote:

Hint: 75.9 & 75.10 are "Comcast channels" as well.

Actually, they aren't. They are virtual channels. Real channels are
whole numbers. Real channels, say 49, can have 1 or more virtual
channel numbers associated with it. Each of the virtual channel numbers
would have a segment of the bit stream, that is all sent on the real
channel number, for its broadcast.

75.9 and 75.10 are numbers assigned to those channels *BY COMCAST* That
doesn't qualify them as "Comcast channels" ?? They are more "Comcast
channels than are 49 and 50, which are industry standard channels.

No, it doesn't. They would be virtual channel numbers assigned to a real
channel number. And they can also be used by anyone else.

[BTW, I bet you'll find that they're the 9th and 10th channel assigned,
by Comcast, to channel 75 (Ultraband - 531MHz.)

Could be, or could be anywhere within the bandwidth. Frank I don't care
what they actually are, only that they could be somewhere else.

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