Switch off at the socket?

Zero Tolerance wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, "Norman Wells"
wrote:

However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat.
To keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts
of heat need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for
as much of the year as he needs any heating at all. Admittedly,
that may be a bit cheaper if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same
amount of energy, so it's unlikely to have a huge impact on climate
change.

This is an old (and thoroughly discredited) logical error.

Who has 'discredited' it, and where?

Saving 45
watts of energy is not the same as saving 45 watts of heat. For a
start, most of that energy is expended in doing the 'work' - e.g.
lighting lights, spinning discs, and so on. Any excess heat generated
after that (unnecessary) work is done is minimal.

By your logic, if I leave a Sky+ box on standby, then the 20 watts it
spends on spinning the hard disc is converted into 20 watts of heat.

You're following me well so far.

If that were true, it would turn Sky+ into a free energy machine -
which is impossible - breaking every scientific law there is.

Why do you think it takes 20 watts of energy to keep a spinning disc
spinning?


Your 45 watts of wasted energy probably results in (I'm guessing here)
maybe 2 watts of heat.

You never studied any science at school, did you?

If you did, you either never got as far as the law of conservation of
energy, or never understood it if you did.

Whatever heating system you have is going to be
a FAR more efficient way of generating an equivalent amount of heat.
And considerably cheaper too.

It will be somewhat more efficient, and it will be somewhat cheaper as long
as it's not electric. There are some savings to be made therefore, but not
as much as greeny-weenies think.

On Sep 15, 12:06*pm, pete wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, Norman Wells wrote:
Vortex4 wrote:
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message
....
There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.

David Mackays book is a good read on this subject:
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/w...page_155.shtml

So he says he can save all of 45 watts if he turns everything off instead of
leaving it on standby when he's not using it. *The equivalent of a very dim
lightbulb therefore. *Great!

Which in the very next sentence he states is a saving of £45 per year. Sounds
worth having, esp. as it's savings from taxed income.

However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat. *To
keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts of heat
need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for as much of the
year as he needs any heating at all. *Admittedly, that may be a bit cheaper
if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same amount of energy, so it's
unlikely to have a huge impact on climate change.

True, as far as it goes. However for (depending where you live & how well
insulated your house is) half the year, it's wasted heat. Plus it doesn't
contribute to the _usable_ room environment when the occupants are asleep
or out -

Warming an empty room will reduce heat loss from adjacent rooms so it
does have some effect.

You're also getting getting dangerously close to "is it better to
leave the heating on all the time or let the house cool down and warm
it up again" ;-)

MBQ

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 04:25:19 -0700 (PDT), Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 15, 12:06*pm, pete wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, Norman Wells wrote:
Vortex4 wrote:
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message
...
There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.

David Mackays book is a good read on this subject:
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/w...page_155.shtml

So he says he can save all of 45 watts if he turns everything off instead of
leaving it on standby when he's not using it. *The equivalent of a very dim
lightbulb therefore. *Great!

Which in the very next sentence he states is a saving of £45 per year. Sounds
worth having, esp. as it's savings from taxed income.

However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat. *To
keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts of heat
need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for as much of the
year as he needs any heating at all. *Admittedly, that may be a bit cheaper
if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same amount of energy, so it's
unlikely to have a huge impact on climate change.

True, as far as it goes. However for (depending where you live & how well
insulated your house is) half the year, it's wasted heat. Plus it doesn't
contribute to the _usable_ room environment when the occupants are asleep
or out -

Warming an empty room will reduce heat loss from adjacent rooms so it
does have some effect.

While true in theory at least, until you quantify the amount it, saying that
doesn't contribute anything useful to the discussion.

On Sep 15, 12:51*pm, pete wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 04:25:19 -0700 (PDT), Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 15, 12:06*pm, pete wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:39:13 +0100, Norman Wells wrote:
Vortex4 wrote:
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message
...
There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.

David Mackays book is a good read on this subject:
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/w...page_155.shtml

So he says he can save all of 45 watts if he turns everything off instead of
leaving it on standby when he's not using it. *The equivalent of a very dim
lightbulb therefore. *Great!

Which in the very next sentence he states is a saving of £45 per year. Sounds
worth having, esp. as it's savings from taxed income.

However, he ignores the fact that he's also losing 45 watts of heat. *To
keep his house at exactly the same temperature, an extra 45 watts of heat
need to be pumped out by whatever heating system he has, for as much of the
year as he needs any heating at all. *Admittedly, that may be a bit cheaper
if it's gas-fired, but it's still the same amount of energy, so it's
unlikely to have a huge impact on climate change.

True, as far as it goes. However for (depending where you live & how well
insulated your house is) half the year, it's wasted heat. Plus it doesn't
contribute to the _usable_ room environment when the occupants are asleep
or out -

Warming an empty room will reduce heat loss from adjacent rooms so it
does have some effect.

While true in theory at least, until you quantify the amount it, saying that
doesn't contribute anything useful to the discussion.

shrug Neither does your grammar, if you want to be pedantic about
it.

MBQ

"Halmyre" wrote in message
...
On 14 Sep, 23:30, Mike Swift wrote:
In article
.com, NT writes

There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.

The phantom power issue is much over stated. In most cases it isn't
worth getting up to switch things off.

Have you ever driven through most towns late at night, the shops are lit
up like Blackpool illuminations, and they want us to switch off at the
power socket.


I wonder what the residents of Blackpool use as a comparative
reference when they want to comment on levels of illumination?

--
Halmyre

Las Vegas?

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 07:54:45 +0000 (UTC), Gordon Henderson wrote:

I did the power meter thing a year or 2 ago - went round the house
meansuring everything. The only real surprise was my HP Colour Laser
printer. In it's "low-power" idle mode it's sucking 30W. That now gets
turned off.

My old HP5N took 45s from standby or 45s from On - I didn't bother to
measure it as there was no advantage in it being on, but I'd guess it was
about the same.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Andrew
scribeth thus
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT), "alexander.keys1"
wrote:

There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.

They can't switch the power stations off overnight, so they may as
well power the 1W my TV takes to be in standby.

I seem to remember that some hydro electric plant is powered down and
some gas fired .. but coal is rather long winded to slow down and
restart..

They use the spare overnight power to pump the water back up in a stored
hydro power station so that it's full in the morning when everyone turns
their kettles on, so it isn't wasted.

tim

On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 10:53:06 +0100, David Skinner wrote:

In article dd11dcee-9b58-4d46-899e-
, alexander.keys1
@googlemail.com says...

There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.

My parents' 1-and-a-bit-year-old TV broke down the other week. Stopped
receiving DTV and the settings menus became unavailable.

The repair man reloaded the firmware from a memory card, which fixed it.
Then he asked whether it got switched off at the mains a lot. It did -
every night. He said that that may well have been the cause of firmware
corruption and that they should leave the set on standby.

It's a Toshiba Regza something or other, if that matters.

Ah, got one of those here (not mine but some friends staying here for a few
weeks wanted a new TV so we're using theirs) and it's switched off most of
the time.
Difference is, it's not using the Freeview decoder as my arial isn't good
enough (gets ITV etc. but not BBC), so we haven't noticed anything wrong
with DTV. It's only 2 months old so might have been modified since a year
or so ago.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

It will be somewhat more efficient, and it will be somewhat cheaper as
long as it's not electric. There are some savings to be made therefore,
but not as much as greeny-weenies think.

As has been said, ZT, all energy coming into your home ends up as heat,
which for maybe seven months of the year is actually desirable.

Switching off your 45W of standby power just means your central heating
system has to deliver 45W more heat to keep the room stat clicked off, so
you don't gain anything. None of this breaks any laws of physics: it's all
about conservation of energy.

You may argue that 45W from your gas supply is environmentally "greener"
than 45W from your electricity supply, which is probably true but it's a
close call. And, of course, we agree that during the summer months that 45W
leakage into your home is actually undesirable, because you're already warm
enough.

Clearly, then, there will be savings by switching to off rather than to
standby, but the crucial point is that these savings are *much* less than
the green pundits claim, and are almost not savings at all during the winter
months.

SteveT

"David Skinner" wrote in message
t...
In article dd11dcee-9b58-4d46-899e-


My parents' 1-and-a-bit-year-old TV broke down the other week. Stopped
receiving DTV and the settings menus became unavailable.

The repair man reloaded the firmware from a memory card, which fixed it.
Then he asked whether it got switched off at the mains a lot. It did -
every night. He said that that may well have been the cause of firmware
corruption and that they should leave the set on standby.

It's a Toshiba Regza something or other, if that matters.

Mr repair man is talking rubbish to get out of telling you what the real
problem was. When I first went on cable tv the installation guy from Nynex
(as it was then; later C&W then NTL and finally Virgin Media) wanted the STB
left permanently on standby so they could send messages to the television.
Now it gets turned off whenever I am out and overnight and, apart from it
taking a minute to settle down when first switched back on, there are no
problems.