survivors 1975-77

In article ,
Mike Henry wrote:
To mask the sound of traffic and aircraft on location...

Why wouldn't they use ADR and Foley artists instead? No need for
background music then.

Adds a vast cost to the production. Guest artists would likely be out of
contract and have to be booked for additional time as well - since the ADR
session will be weeks after the actual shoot. And are you trying to put me
out of work? ;-) Not that I've had much recently. ;-(

--
*The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18 jul, 13:50, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
And are you trying to put me
out of work? ;-) Not that I've had much recently. ;-(

--

if i were you i'd run from this thread cuz if the 70s series proves
anything it's that music can be pointless, adding to the necessity of
the silences as it's post-apocalyptic. i can't think of a british or
american series that's more silent, otoh

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 09:58:03 +0100, Ophelia wrote:


"Steve Terry" wrote in message
...
In the original, they were fighting over half a dozen potatoes,
and brewing alcohol to fuel cars
Bleeding daft, even in 1975 there's enough stored resources
to keep the remaining 1% of the population supplied for years

By year 2, and in many cases (depending on storage conditions) within
months, any petrol or diesel stored without preservatives (which fuel
supplies in ordinary petrol stations and tankers don't have) will
deteriorate to the point where it won't run a car or generator.

Tinned food will normally last for decades, but when it is stored in
places
without temperature or humidity control, so freezing in winter and
getting
hot in summer, both the food and the tins will deteriorate much faster
than
normal. In large pallets the stuff in the centre of the stack will do
better
than that on the outsides. Dried goods such as rice, pasta, sugar and
salt
will also last well but all they are usually stored in soft containers
and
all except the latter with be prone to predation and spoilage by vermin.

In the circumstances shown in Survivors some supplies would be available
for
a long time but others would become useless much quicker than you might
expect.

Laptops will certainly be useful for years too, provided you can generate
the power to keep charging the battery, even from the car while running
for
other things but because of the fuel deterioration you would have to be
prepared to go to solar or other power generation within 2 years to keep
any
electrical/electronic items running - not quite so much of a
consideration
in the 70s as for today's generation.

The most unrealistic things I found about the remake was that they 'went
shopping' for a few boxes/bags of stuff at a time, instead of building
up a
stock, even though they knew there was competition for supplies and it
would
have been far more efficient use of their fuel to load up on one run
than do
many, and that after the first time they were threatened by a man
carrying a
gun they didn't take measures to protect themselves for when it happened
again, as it inevitably did.

David (my better half)

But what would you need a laptop for anyway? The internet wouldn't be
running in the UK after a week or so and unless you want to play
solitaire or write an angry letter to your MP they would be pretty
useless.

Fred X

"Ophelia" wrote in message
...

"Steve Terry" wrote in message
...
In the original, they were fighting over half a dozen potatoes,
and brewing alcohol to fuel cars
Bleeding daft, even in 1975 there's enough stored resources
to keep the remaining 1% of the population supplied for years

By year 2, and in many cases (depending on storage conditions) within
months, any petrol or diesel stored without preservatives (which fuel
supplies in ordinary petrol stations and tankers don't have) will
deteriorate to the point where it won't run a car or generator.

Why would petrol/diesel deteriotate, what would they break down
into in order to make them unuseable as fuel?
They are hydrocarbons, chemically speaking they are pretty inert,
all they really do is burn.

Col

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 18:05:29 +0100, "Col"
wrote:


"Ophelia" wrote in message
...

"Steve Terry" wrote in message
...
In the original, they were fighting over half a dozen potatoes,
and brewing alcohol to fuel cars
Bleeding daft, even in 1975 there's enough stored resources
to keep the remaining 1% of the population supplied for years

By year 2, and in many cases (depending on storage conditions) within
months, any petrol or diesel stored without preservatives (which fuel
supplies in ordinary petrol stations and tankers don't have) will
deteriorate to the point where it won't run a car or generator.

Why would petrol/diesel deteriotate, what would they break down
into in order to make them unuseable as fuel?
They are hydrocarbons, chemically speaking they are pretty inert,
all they really do is burn.

The problem seems to be with oxidation of the fuel.

http://www.fluther.com/disc/46250/ho...trol-keep-for/

Question

How long does unleaded petrol keep for?

I know petrol deteriorates and that old petrol can damage some
mechanisms inside cars. I’m also not likely to need to use the fuel
in my canister [plastic container] very frequently, as it’s really
just for emergency situations. How long should I keep this petrol
for? I was planning on periodically putting the old canister fuel in
my car and refilling it to make sure it is fresh and usable.

Answer

Deterioration of petrol is mostly caused by oxidation. The rate of
oxidation will depend on temperature (faster at higher
temperatures). Storage in the boot of the car over the summer months
would almost certainly result in deterioration. Badly oxidized
petrol acquires a darker color and a “skunky” aroma. It also becomes
cloudy, and may have visible particles of gums, which are the
products of oxidation. These are what cause engine damage.

Rather than have to remember to rotate your reserve, you might want
to consider buying a bit of petrol stabilizer to the reserve. This
is an anti-oxident that will greatly slow the deterioration. It can
last up to a couple of years with a stabilizer.

This NZ government document refers to an accelerated test (high
temperature) for oxidation:
http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/Mul...spx#P232_25594

Fred X wrote:
But what would you need a laptop for anyway? The internet wouldn't be
running in the UK after a week or so and unless you want to play
solitaire or write an angry letter to your MP they would be pretty
useless.

The quantity of material about everything from edible wild plants to nursing
and *basic* surgery to maintaining vehicles and a vast assortment of other
subjects is available for download now online. You would need the contents
and space of a large civic library to keep the amount of useful or
potentially vital information that you could store on a hard disk and back
up onto a few easily portable usb drives. Even if you hadn't done that in
advance of a major event, despite any warnings you might have had,
specialist shops e.g. gun shops with info on hunting and trapping, garden
centres on horticulture, health food shops, veterinary surgeries, health
centres, schools, universities and public libraries all have DVDs with
essential information. Get in early and collect them while other survivors
are still raiding supermarkets and you have generations worth of research
and experience available to you that you couldn't hope to store or transport
in any other way.

A journal and record system is also invaluable for keeping track of your
supplies and what was sown, harvested and preserved when and where, what
items of potential use you found where but didn't see the need to collect at
that time, where people with particular skills are to be found. You could do
that all on paper, but paper is as vulnerable in its own way as electronic
media and heavier and more difficult to transport. Right now you could put
scanned copies of all you important documents e.g. certificates, insurance
documents, licences, passport, family photographs and videos, etc onto a
drive smaller than a pen and keep them in a safe place in case of fire in
your home. The personal items on there might be invaluable to you in a
Survivors type scenario.

A computer also provides you with a music and DVD player, a games machine,
an ebook reader, a diary, and much more in a compact package. Don't
underestimate the effect on morale of boredom, especially among young
people. We are all now used to a constant stream of information and
activity. After getting over the initial shock and horror survivors will
look to the reassurance of some of the trappings of their previous life. The
more of these they can find, that are of value to them as individuals, the
less traumatic adjustment would be. In the 70s you might have cheered up a
group with a singsong to someone strumming a guitar, now it would take
something more exciting. Yes, eventually survivors would have to return to a
rural lifestyle with a great deal of manual work and less leisure time, and
there would be some of that even in the early days, but even in the middle
ages the lower classes had some time for recreation, particularly in the
winter months. Modern survivors making use of all those remaining resources
at first would have less to do and more time to fill.

David

Col wrote:

Why would petrol/diesel deteriotate, what would they break down
into in order to make them unuseable as fuel?
They are hydrocarbons, chemically speaking they are pretty inert,
all they really do is burn.

Col

Not at all. I can source the chemical dissolution for you if you wish but
reaction to the containers, with air, and with various contaminants
including water all play their part. Diesel is slower to deteriorate than
petrol, paraffin is even slower and will last for years for burning but if
you want the fuels for motors to last in useable form then you have to add
preservatives otherwise gums form that will quickly clog an engine. Try
running a generator or lawnmower on a can of petrol - without preservative -
you have had stored for a year. If you can get it to start at all you will
soon start to have problems and it will quickly die. The fuel system will
then need a major cleaning and probably replacement of some parts to get it
running again. The armed forces and other government stockpiles have these,
and they are available commercially for anyone who expects to buy fuel in
bulk and use it over a long period, but the turnover for normal domestic use
is so high in petrol stations that they are not required and the extra
expense would be a waste. This is a well known issue and you'll find plenty
of references online.

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 19:27:59 +0100, "Ophelia"
wrote:

Not at all. I can source the chemical dissolution for you if you wish but
reaction to the containers, with air, and with various contaminants
including water all play their part. Diesel is slower to deteriorate than
petrol, paraffin is even slower and will last for years for burning but if
you want the fuels for motors to last in useable form then you have to add
preservatives otherwise gums form that will quickly clog an engine. Try
running a generator or lawnmower on a can of petrol - without preservative -
you have had stored for a year. If you can get it to start at all you will
soon start to have problems and it will quickly die. The fuel system will
then need a major cleaning and probably replacement of some parts to get it
running again.

A 1970s Diesel will run on straight vegetable oil, slightly mouldy
Diesel fuel should be no problem. A more modern one with fuel sensors
& computers etc would have a problem. Diesel fuel has been cleaned up
since the 1970s, anyone else remember lorry drivers trying to heat the
fuel with a small fire so they could get the engine started? You don't
see that now.

"Ophelia" wrote in message
...
Col wrote:

Why would petrol/diesel deteriotate, what would they break down
into in order to make them unuseable as fuel?
They are hydrocarbons, chemically speaking they are pretty inert,
all they really do is burn.

Col

Not at all. I can source the chemical dissolution for you if you wish but
reaction to the containers, with air, and with various contaminants
including water all play their part. Diesel is slower to deteriorate than
petrol, paraffin is even slower and will last for years for burning but if
you want the fuels for motors to last in useable form then you have to add
preservatives otherwise gums form that will quickly clog an engine. Try
running a generator or lawnmower on a can of petrol - without
preservative -
you have had stored for a year. If you can get it to start at all you will
soon start to have problems and it will quickly die. The fuel system will
then need a major cleaning and probably replacement of some parts to get
it
running again. The armed forces and other government stockpiles have
these,
and they are available commercially for anyone who expects to buy fuel in
bulk and use it over a long period, but the turnover for normal domestic
use
is so high in petrol stations that they are not required and the extra
expense would be a waste. This is a well known issue and you'll find
plenty
of references online.

I'm interested to know just what chemical reactions ocurr in these
relatively
inert hydrocarbons to cause these 'gums'.
If it's 'oxidation' well isn't that the same as combustion, the reaction
with oxygen
that produces water and carbon dioxide.
Where do these 'gums' come into the equation?

Col
and carbon dioxide,

On Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:44:43 +0100, "Col"
wrote:


"Ophelia" wrote in message
...
Col wrote:

Why would petrol/diesel deteriotate, what would they break down
into in order to make them unuseable as fuel?
They are hydrocarbons, chemically speaking they are pretty inert,
all they really do is burn.

Col

Not at all. I can source the chemical dissolution for you if you wish but
reaction to the containers, with air, and with various contaminants
including water all play their part. Diesel is slower to deteriorate than
petrol, paraffin is even slower and will last for years for burning but if
you want the fuels for motors to last in useable form then you have to add
preservatives otherwise gums form that will quickly clog an engine. Try
running a generator or lawnmower on a can of petrol - without
preservative -
you have had stored for a year. If you can get it to start at all you will
soon start to have problems and it will quickly die. The fuel system will
then need a major cleaning and probably replacement of some parts to get
it
running again. The armed forces and other government stockpiles have
these,
and they are available commercially for anyone who expects to buy fuel in
bulk and use it over a long period, but the turnover for normal domestic
use
is so high in petrol stations that they are not required and the extra
expense would be a waste. This is a well known issue and you'll find
plenty
of references online.

I'm interested to know just what chemical reactions ocurr in these
relatively
inert hydrocarbons to cause these 'gums'.
If it's 'oxidation' well isn't that the same as combustion, the reaction
with oxygen
that produces water and carbon dioxide.
Where do these 'gums' come into the equation?

I don't know the details of the chemical reactions, but the two things
happen at totally different temperatures. The gum-producing reaction
happens at "room temperature", combustion at a much, much, higher
temperature.


Col
and carbon dioxide,