ABC O&O stations running two 720p sub-channels

"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
CLicker wrote:

You may not have, but our little friend Elmo has tried.
He claims that having two hd streams on one channel
isn't hd.

YOU'RE the one who's saying it IS.

And yet it's being pointed out to you that what's being
delivered could actually have come from a DVD!

Is DVD now HD? Are you making that definition??

DVD audio/video averages less than 4.7 Mbps. What channels
advertised
as HD are as low as 4.7 Mbps?

Wow! They must be blockbuster specials ;-0)

http://webphysics.davidson.edu/facul...dvd_specs.html

Nice! What's this got to do with your statement: DVD
audio/video averages less than 4.7 Mbps.

A 4.7 GB capacity confusing you?

"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
CLicker wrote:

Hard to make that statement since DVDs are only 480, not 720
or 1080. And
don't be confused: While the 650nm laser on DVD players can
read at a
maximum of 10.5 Mbps, actual DVD video is but a portion of
this. The
average rate for video and audio is less than 4.7 Mbps, not
10 Mbps.

I know that it's difficult for some to read and retain entire
threads, especially when sniping becomes more important than
information exchange.
Please see:
Message-ID:

Yeah, so I didn't quote back the entire "back-of-envelope"
babble.
I was only responding to your association of 10 Mbps to DVD
audio/video,
when DVD audio/video bit rates average lower than 4.7 Mbps.
Quoting back
lines and lines of irrelevant nonsense is...irrelevant.

Are you still using that broken calculator?
Your inane statement regarding DVD bit rates is now in several
different parts of this thread, let's find one place for you to
explain what a 4.7 GB capacity has to do with average bit rate
employed?

Grab hold of any of your DVDs (you do have some, yes?) and match
play time against file size. Guess what, the result is the
average bit rate for that a/v set. I posted my result of this
trivial exercise in another response in this thread, which you
saw fit to clip in your reply, which merely linked to the DVD
size spec. Here's what you clipped:

Although DVD can be 10 mbps, most dual layers I've seen exceeded
6 and many 8 or more mbps. A single layer disc at 90 minutes of
play time can offer 6.6 mbps, if filled.

Random selection:
Disc 4 of Rome, 7,459,721,216 bytes,
130 minutes (2 episodes + bonus) = 7,650,996 bps

"CLicker" wrote in message
...

"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
CLicker wrote:

Hard to make that statement since DVDs are only 480, not
720 or 1080. And
don't be confused: While the 650nm laser on DVD players
can read at a
maximum of 10.5 Mbps, actual DVD video is but a portion
of this. The
average rate for video and audio is less than 4.7 Mbps,
not 10 Mbps.

I know that it's difficult for some to read and retain
entire threads, especially when sniping becomes more
important than information exchange.
Please see:
Message-ID:

Yeah, so I didn't quote back the entire
"back-of-envelope" babble.
I was only responding to your association of 10 Mbps to
DVD audio/video,
when DVD audio/video bit rates average lower than 4.7
Mbps. Quoting back
lines and lines of irrelevant nonsense is...irrelevant.

Are you still using that broken calculator?
Your inane statement regarding DVD bit rates is now in
several different parts of this thread, let's find one
place for you to explain what a 4.7 GB capacity has to do
with average bit rate employed?

Grab hold of any of your DVDs (you do have some, yes?) and
match play time against file size. Guess what, the result
is the average bit rate for that a/v set. I posted my
result of this trivial exercise in another response in
this thread, which you saw fit to clip in your reply,
which merely linked to the DVD size spec. Here's what you
clipped:

Although DVD can be 10 mbps, most dual layers I've seen
exceeded
6 and many 8 or more mbps. A single layer disc at 90
minutes of
play time can offer 6.6 mbps, if filled.

Random selection:
Disc 4 of Rome, 7,459,721,216 bytes,
130 minutes (2 episodes + bonus) = 7,650,996 bps

Did you subtract the multiple language tracks, DVD menus,
multi-language captions, extra camera views, etc.? Does the
130 minutes include the bonus? More detail please on this
disk before I comment further.

David

"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
CLicker wrote:

How do you figure, since DVD audio/video averages a maximum
of 4.69 Mbps?

I've replied to this ridiculous statement elsewhere.
Where are you getting this number?

http://webphysics.davidson.edu/facul...dvd_specs.html
for starters.

Do you trust everything you read on the net?

Do the math (BTW, is you nick suggesting that you attended UCLA
or are merely part of a clan?)
133 minutes per DVD5 side * 4.69 mbps = 4.7 GB
So far so good.

You're suggesting that this poorly written DVD description
defines ALL DVDs being 133 minutes per DVD5 side or longer.
That's simply insane! Your own DVD buying/playing experience
flies in the face of such logic. Most DVDs now are dual layer
(8.5 GB). Most DVD5 discs do not contain over 100 minutes of
a/v.

Recomputing: 133 minutes per filled 8,500,000,000 DL side =
8,521,303 bits per second.

Get real!

"David" wrote in message
...

"CLicker" wrote in message
...

"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
CLicker wrote:

Hard to make that statement since DVDs are only 480, not
720 or 1080. And
don't be confused: While the 650nm laser on DVD players can
read at a
maximum of 10.5 Mbps, actual DVD video is but a portion of
this. The
average rate for video and audio is less than 4.7 Mbps, not
10 Mbps.

I know that it's difficult for some to read and retain
entire threads, especially when sniping becomes more
important than information exchange.
Please see:
Message-ID:

Yeah, so I didn't quote back the entire "back-of-envelope"
babble.
I was only responding to your association of 10 Mbps to DVD
audio/video,
when DVD audio/video bit rates average lower than 4.7 Mbps.
Quoting back
lines and lines of irrelevant nonsense is...irrelevant.

Are you still using that broken calculator?
Your inane statement regarding DVD bit rates is now in
several different parts of this thread, let's find one place
for you to explain what a 4.7 GB capacity has to do with
average bit rate employed?

Grab hold of any of your DVDs (you do have some, yes?) and
match play time against file size. Guess what, the result is
the average bit rate for that a/v set. I posted my result of
this trivial exercise in another response in this thread,
which you saw fit to clip in your reply, which merely linked
to the DVD size spec. Here's what you clipped:

Although DVD can be 10 mbps, most dual layers I've seen
exceeded
6 and many 8 or more mbps. A single layer disc at 90 minutes
of
play time can offer 6.6 mbps, if filled.

Random selection:
Disc 4 of Rome, 7,459,721,216 bytes,
130 minutes (2 episodes + bonus) = 7,650,996 bps

Did you subtract the multiple language tracks, DVD menus,
multi-language captions, extra camera views, etc.? Does the
130 minutes include the bonus? More detail please on this disk
before I comment further.

David


David, we're calculating play time bit rate from a DVD. It must
include all tracks and angles in the interleaved a/v set. What
I did was play the two episodes long enough to read the play
time for each. Then did the same (as indicated above) for the
bonus. There are a few text only bonus materials, which I chalk
up to noise level or rounding error. I also did not attempt to
measure menu sizes and subtract that, but doing so would only
serve to increase my simple arithmetic derived average bit rate
for this DVD.

I'm sure it would be easy to find higher bit rate DVDs
("Schindler's List" and the first three "Star Wars" come to
mind, as Spielberg seemed to be intent on delivering the best
transfers up to that time). I could step through the library to
find a DVD which uses a distinct VTS for each element, but it's
not worth the effort. Likewise, extracting just one chapter
(with all its tracks) and measuring that file size against play
time would be most precise. But again, not worth the effort.

It's always fun to debate opinion, but fact (at least simple
arithmetic facts) aren't debatable.

The issue here is not whether Rome plays a few K above or below
7.65 mbps, but that saying that all DVDs average 4.69 mbps or
less is simply a ridiculous statement.

"UCLAN" wrote in message
...
CLicker wrote:

Hard to make that statement since DVDs are only 480, not 720 or 1080. And
don't be confused: While the 650nm laser on DVD players can read at a
maximum of 10.5 Mbps, actual DVD video is but a portion of this. The
average rate for video and audio is less than 4.7 Mbps, not 10 Mbps.

I know that it's difficult for some to read and retain entire threads,
especially when sniping becomes more important than information exchange.
Please see:
Message-ID:

Yeah, so I didn't quote back the entire "back-of-envelope" babble.
I was only responding to your association of 10 Mbps to DVD audio/video,
when DVD audio/video bit rates average lower than 4.7 Mbps. Quoting back
lines and lines of irrelevant nonsense is...irrelevant.

That little bit of babble was so irrelevant I printed it out to stick on the
wall of my equipment room, along with other notes and reminders.

CLicker wrote:

You may not have, but our little friend Elmo has tried.
He claims that having two hd streams on one channel
isn't hd.

YOU'RE the one who's saying it IS.

And yet it's being pointed out to you that what's being
delivered could actually have come from a DVD!

Is DVD now HD? Are you making that definition??

DVD audio/video averages less than 4.7 Mbps. What channels
advertised
as HD are as low as 4.7 Mbps?

Wow! They must be blockbuster specials ;-0)

http://webphysics.davidson.edu/facul...dvd_specs.html


Nice! What's this got to do with your statement: DVD
audio/video averages less than 4.7 Mbps.

A 4.7 GB capacity confusing you?

Sigh...

You can lead a horse to water: [from about 1/2 half way down page]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Audio/Video Specifications:

Data Transfer Rate: Variable speed date transfer at an average rate of 4.69
megabits/ second for image and sound
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Try again.

CLicker wrote:

Are you still using that broken calculator?
Your inane statement regarding DVD bit rates is now in several
different parts of this thread, let's find one place for you to
explain what a 4.7 GB capacity has to do with average bit rate
employed?

Sigh...

The site clearly said that the maximum average data rate of the
*audio/video* content of a DVD is 4.69 Mbps.

Random selection:
Disc 4 of Rome, 7,459,721,216 bytes,
130 minutes (2 episodes + bonus) = 7,650,996 bps

The *maximum* data transfer rate of the DVD laser is 10.5 Mbps. Nobody
is foolish enough to suggest that the laser would be asked to operate
at that level. The *audio/video* portion of the main program (not including
commentary, error correction, etc.) would take quite a bit less than the
total Mbps. We were comparing DVD to HDTV, remember? If you are trying to
tell me you believe that "Rome" is on standard DVD at 7.6 Mbps, you're nuts.

CLicker wrote:

The issue here is not whether Rome plays a few K above or below
7.65 mbps, but that saying that all DVDs average 4.69 mbps or
less is simply a ridiculous statement.

Extremely nice 480 video can be obtained from 4.7 Mbps average transfers
when stat-muxing is used. Even *more* so with b&w, as you noted with
"Schindler's List." There's more to good transfers on DVDs than high
bit rate.

Kalarama wrote:

Yeah, so I didn't quote back the entire "back-of-envelope" babble.
I was only responding to your association of 10 Mbps to DVD audio/video,
when DVD audio/video bit rates average lower than 4.7 Mbps. Quoting back
lines and lines of irrelevant nonsense is...irrelevant.

That little bit of babble was so irrelevant I printed it out to stick on the
wall of my equipment room, along with other notes and reminders.

Irrelevant to my reply to the poster's statement, yes. And I quote back *only*
what is relevant to my reply.