Ham radio Interference

In article , Zaphod wrote:
I have the same issue with a guy living next door to me. When he's on
his HAM radio he comes through the speakers on my stereo, makes the TV
unwatchable and cuts off my broadband connection. I contacted the
RSGB (Kath Wilson) and was basically told that I was the one who had
all this faulty equipment and would need to purchase filters to try
and correct the issue. The guy causing the interference told me I
should have my house rewired! For some reason, I was suddenly the one
who was at fault ?? An innocent guy can't watch his own television or
go on the internet and it's my fault - I ain't causing the
interefence!

You are at liberty to watch your TV, go on the internet or listen to your
stereo.

However, if your broadband modem does not comply with the terms of the CE
approval with which it was issued, or if your stereo performs in a manner
outwith its specifications (as a radio receiver), or if your TV doesn't meet
the minimum regulatory EMC standards, then the responsibility lies with you,
and you alone.

Why should your neighbour spend his time and money fixing your faulty
equipment?

If your car ran out of petrol outside his house, would you expect him to pay
for the next tankful?

Not really a fair comparison. A car can run out of petrol solely as a result of
its owner's neglect and without any intervention from anybody else, and in this
instance it would indeed be entirely the owner's responsibility.

Radio interference does not originate in a receiver, but from an extraneous
signal which has been generated somewhere else.

The radio hams' argument may be that it is the receiver which is at fault for
being vulnerable, but these days most people would probably take the more
intuitive view that if *everybody's* receiver is vulnerable, then the fault is
with whoever generates the interfering signal.

Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

"Roderick Stewart" wrote in
message
.myzen.co.uk...
In article , Zaphod wrote:
I have the same issue with a guy living next door to me. When he's
on
his HAM radio he comes through the speakers on my stereo, makes the
TV
unwatchable and cuts off my broadband connection. I contacted the
RSGB (Kath Wilson) and was basically told that I was the one who
had
all this faulty equipment and would need to purchase filters to try
and correct the issue. The guy causing the interference told me I
should have my house rewired! For some reason, I was suddenly the
one
who was at fault ?? An innocent guy can't watch his own television
or
go on the internet and it's my fault - I ain't causing the
interefence!

You are at liberty to watch your TV, go on the internet or listen to
your
stereo.

However, if your broadband modem does not comply with the terms of
the CE
approval with which it was issued, or if your stereo performs in a
manner
outwith its specifications (as a radio receiver), or if your TV
doesn't meet
the minimum regulatory EMC standards, then the responsibility lies
with you,
and you alone.

Why should your neighbour spend his time and money fixing your faulty
equipment?

If your car ran out of petrol outside his house, would you expect him
to pay
for the next tankful?

Not really a fair comparison. A car can run out of petrol solely as a
result of
its owner's neglect and without any intervention from anybody else,
and in this
instance it would indeed be entirely the owner's responsibility.

Radio interference does not originate in a receiver, but from an
extraneous
signal which has been generated somewhere else.

The radio hams' argument may be that it is the receiver which is at
fault for
being vulnerable, but these days most people would probably take the
more
intuitive view that if *everybody's* receiver is vulnerable, then the
fault is
with whoever generates the interfering signal.




Actually it is the fault of the manufacturer of the kit and ergo the
owner/user if it receives signals that are not intended for it. It is a
licencing requirement that any transmitting equipment must be spectrally
'clean' and any Radio Amateur is required to be able to demonstrate such
should a Radio Investigation Officer request it. This probably why, over
the last 10-20 years, 'home-brew' kit - with the possible exception of
QRP (very low power) equipment - has pretty well died in favour of black
boxes from the Far East which usually meet such spectral purity specs
with ease.

Manufacturing is all about costs and keeping them as low as possible to
improve the unit profit margin. When the Astra GTE first came out it had
an electronic display dashboard made by AC Delco. It had - seemingly -
never occurred to them that a future owner might want to fit a two-way
radio or even - wonder of wonders - a radiophone (we're talking System 2
here - with System 4 just on the horizon.) If a radio transmitted within
about 20ft of the car the dash went haywire - usually speed and fuel to
zero, revs and temp off the clock.

When they investigated the problem the answer was two 1nF caps costing
(in bulk) about 1p each which, in a good design, would have been fitted
as standard but were omitted on cost grounds. The electronic display was
dropped not long afterwards supposedly on the grounds of customer
dislike but more realistically because it had too many other problems of
which RF sensitivity was just one. The Astra GTE was a favourite lease
car for Electricity Board and Gas Board engineers (I'm talking senior
staff here, not the fitter that comes to your home) and so many dropped
the GTE after one lease period (usually two years) that Vauxhall got the
message.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

"Roderick Stewart" wrote in
message .myzen.co.uk...
Radio interference does not originate in a receiver, but from an
extraneous
signal which has been generated somewhere else.

Vulnerability to interference, particularly in non-radio equipment, lies in
poor design and scrimping on components - the manufacturer's ill-advised
attempts to reduce the cost of goods, and to squeeze the last few cents
worth of margin out of the product.

Actually I think you are going after the wrong villain here. Admittedly it
could be that he/she has a problem but in my experience, modern equipment is
totally open to any radio interference there may be. In the old days some
mains filtering and some in the outputs like speaker connections seemed to
be standard, but not in this penny pinching time. The specs for this seem
not to take modern life in to consideration at all.
Actually SSB is far more difficult to stop than fm is as the actual signal
changes. You can still complain to Ofcom and people do come and check out
the ham involved, but if they are complying with the law, there is not much
to be done. I used to get interference from the local sea scouts who had a
base on the river near here. In the end I had to get rid of my old amplifier
and buy a different one to get rid of it.
I've also had problems with the Fire Brigade as well, who seem to still use
AM around here.

I often wonder if the mobile phone transmitters are the source of set top
box crashes, certanly my mobile interferes with my amplified sub woofer as
does the neighbours if its on the dresser the other side of the party wall!


Makes you wonder what all this RF is doing to us...
Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
wrote in message
...
On Mar 1, 3:11 pm, Mota wrote:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:18:44 +0000, Dave H
wrote:





I have a Ham Radio enthusiast living some 200 yards away with a big set
of aerianalia. When he turns this in my direction and talks to his
contact, my picture on Sky jumps all over the place to the extent it is
unwatchable. Just like having the vertical hold set wrong. The sound on
my amplifier also cuts out when he is talking. Sky box is connected to a
video recorder by scart and then to the TV, in the next room, by RF
output (they don't make scart leads long enough).

(Turned on the electric keyboard the other day and there he was in
glorious SSB blasting out from the speakers)

I am also getting some mild noise-type interference on other occasions
but cannot be sure it is the same source.

Have been round to see him, nice chap, but he doesn't think he is doing
anything wrong and is not obliged to solve my problem. He has mentioned
some bit of equipment I could put in the 'line',even had a root around
his garage to see if he had one.

Does anyone know the legal position on this type of interference?

If I can't resolve it with him, to what body do I complain? Radio
Society of Great Britain? Ofcom?

Any advice would be welcome on the above or how I can minimise the
interference with a gadget.

David

Cross posted to uk.radio.amateur.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have the same issue with a guy living next door to me. When he's on
his HAM radio he comes through the speakers on my stereo, makes the TV
unwatchable and cuts off my broadband connection. I contacted the
RSGB (Kath Wilson) and was basically told that I was the one who had
all this faulty equipment and would need to purchase filters to try
and correct the issue. The guy causing the interference told me I
should have my house rewired! For some reason, I was suddenly the one
who was at fault ?? An innocent guy can't watch his own television or
go on the internet and it's my fault - I ain't causing the
interefence!

It was obvious that the RSGB look after 'their own' and feel free to
go about the country interfereing with everybody's equipment and
couldn't care less - if you ask me their should be more policing of
this kind of selfish behaviour.

As it turned out, there are certain 'products' you can buy on ebay
which will Jam the transmissions from a ham radio which I am finding
very effective to this date ;-)

In message , Woody
writes
"Roderick Stewart" wrote in
message
t.myzen.co.uk...
In article , Zaphod wrote:
I have the same issue with a guy living next door to me. When he's
on
his HAM radio he comes through the speakers on my stereo, makes the
TV
unwatchable and cuts off my broadband connection. I contacted the
RSGB (Kath Wilson) and was basically told that I was the one who
had
all this faulty equipment and would need to purchase filters to try
and correct the issue. The guy causing the interference told me I
should have my house rewired! For some reason, I was suddenly the
one
who was at fault ?? An innocent guy can't watch his own television
or
go on the internet and it's my fault - I ain't causing the
interefence!

You are at liberty to watch your TV, go on the internet or listen to
your
stereo.

However, if your broadband modem does not comply with the terms of
the CE
approval with which it was issued, or if your stereo performs in a
manner
outwith its specifications (as a radio receiver), or if your TV
doesn't meet
the minimum regulatory EMC standards, then the responsibility lies
with you,
and you alone.

Why should your neighbour spend his time and money fixing your faulty
equipment?

If your car ran out of petrol outside his house, would you expect him
to pay
for the next tankful?

Not really a fair comparison. A car can run out of petrol solely as a
result of
its owner's neglect and without any intervention from anybody else,
and in this
instance it would indeed be entirely the owner's responsibility.

Radio interference does not originate in a receiver, but from an
extraneous
signal which has been generated somewhere else.

The radio hams' argument may be that it is the receiver which is at
fault for
being vulnerable, but these days most people would probably take the
more
intuitive view that if *everybody's* receiver is vulnerable, then the
fault is
with whoever generates the interfering signal.




Actually it is the fault of the manufacturer of the kit and ergo the
owner/user if it receives signals that are not intended for it. It is a
licencing requirement that any transmitting equipment must be spectrally
'clean' and any Radio Amateur is required to be able to demonstrate such
should a Radio Investigation Officer request it. This probably why, over
the last 10-20 years, 'home-brew' kit - with the possible exception of
QRP (very low power) equipment - has pretty well died in favour of black
boxes from the Far East which usually meet such spectral purity specs
with ease.

I don't think that it's a really question of home-made equipment not
being 'spectrally pure'. It's really one of convenience. These days, to
make (for example) a basic amateur HF transceiver costing (say) £400, it
would cost you just as much - and even more - to DIY it. And that's
assuming you can actually get the components. You can buy a new car for
£10,000. Could you make your own for less?

Manufacturing is all about costs and keeping them as low as possible to
improve the unit profit margin. When the Astra GTE first came out it had
an electronic display dashboard made by AC Delco. It had - seemingly -
never occurred to them that a future owner might want to fit a two-way
radio or even - wonder of wonders - a radiophone (we're talking System 2
here - with System 4 just on the horizon.) If a radio transmitted within
about 20ft of the car the dash went haywire - usually speed and fuel to
zero, revs and temp off the clock.

When they investigated the problem the answer was two 1nF caps costing
(in bulk) about 1p each which, in a good design, would have been fitted
as standard but were omitted on cost grounds. The electronic display was
dropped not long afterwards supposedly on the grounds of customer
dislike but more realistically because it had too many other problems of
which RF sensitivity was just one. The Astra GTE was a favourite lease
car for Electricity Board and Gas Board engineers (I'm talking senior
staff here, not the fitter that comes to your home) and so many dropped
the GTE after one lease period (usually two years) that Vauxhall got the
message.

Interesting.
I had a company Astra for a couple of years, and noted in the handbook
that it was specced for on-board transmitters (only) up to 10W at any
frequency. I never had occasion to check this.

Many years ago, I used to run 30W on 144MHz from two Sierras and a
Mondeo (in succession), using a 5/8 wavelength magmount whip aerial in
the centre of the roof. The only interference was with the Mondeo. When
I was transmitting, the right indicators flashed twice as fast as
normal.

As you indicate, some interference problems could be forestalled by the
additional inclusion of a couple of low-cost components. Unfortunately,
the manufactures' official line is often that the most effective (=
'economical' of course) way of dealing with the rare cases of
interference which do occur is do tackle them on an individual basis
(which, of course, they never do). On the other hand, even radio
amateurs appreciate that it would be unreasonable to expect
manufacturers to make all of their products completely 'bomb-proof' to
all RF signals. This is why they are usually quite happy to co-operate
with neighbours 'getting interference' from them so that a sensible cure
to the problem can be found.

One of the most glaring examples of cost-cutting these days is that, in
some computer power supplies (especially the 'replacement' types), the
components intended to suppress the emission of interference are being
deliberately left out. Sometimes the dead give-away is the PC board,
which has a legend showing the positions of the missing bits. Almost
certainly, these power supplies no longer meet any form of CE
interference specifications.
--

No that's wrong. Being an Engineer who has designed equipment to
satisfy the requirements of CE marking, it Trading Standards get a whiff
of it then they will become very interested. Of course if the equipment
was manufactured pre January 1996 then CE adherence does nto apply,
althought there are various EU standards which must have been adhered to
for it to get a ticket for going on sale.

The CE standards for domestic equipment are quite tough, int that they
must not radiate mush conductively or radially, nor should they be
susceptible to mush to a certain level. It sounds like if the HAM is
kicking lots of Watts of ERP then it's not surprising that the gear is
falling over. Perhaps he should review his licence to broadcast and see
if he really is within his ticket.

Rob.

Zaphod wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mar 1, 3:11 pm, Mota wrote:
I have the same issue with a guy living next door to me. When he's on
his HAM radio he comes through the speakers on my stereo, makes the TV
unwatchable and cuts off my broadband connection. I contacted the
RSGB (Kath Wilson) and was basically told that I was the one who had
all this faulty equipment and would need to purchase filters to try
and correct the issue. The guy causing the interference told me I
should have my house rewired! For some reason, I was suddenly the one
who was at fault ?? An innocent guy can't watch his own television or
go on the internet and it's my fault - I ain't causing the
interefence!

You are at liberty to watch your TV, go on the internet or listen to your
stereo.

However, if your broadband modem does not comply with the terms of the CE
approval with which it was issued, or if your stereo performs in a manner
outwith its specifications (as a radio receiver), or if your TV doesn't meet
the minimum regulatory EMC standards, then the responsibility lies with you,
and you alone.

Why should your neighbour spend his time and money fixing your faulty
equipment?

If your car ran out of petrol outside his house, would you expect him to pay
for the next tankful?

In article , Zaphod
scribeth thus

wrote in message
...
On Mar 1, 3:11 pm, Mota wrote:
I have the same issue with a guy living next door to me. When he's on
his HAM radio he comes through the speakers on my stereo, makes the TV
unwatchable and cuts off my broadband connection. I contacted the
RSGB (Kath Wilson) and was basically told that I was the one who had
all this faulty equipment and would need to purchase filters to try
and correct the issue. The guy causing the interference told me I
should have my house rewired! For some reason, I was suddenly the one
who was at fault ?? An innocent guy can't watch his own television or
go on the internet and it's my fault - I ain't causing the
interefence!

You are at liberty to watch your TV, go on the internet or listen to your
stereo.

However, if your broadband modem does not comply with the terms of the CE
approval with which it was issued, or if your stereo performs in a manner
outwith its specifications (as a radio receiver), or if your TV doesn't meet
the minimum regulatory EMC standards, then the responsibility lies with you,
and you alone.

Why should your neighbour spend his time and money fixing your faulty
equipment?

If your car ran out of petrol outside his house, would you expect him to pay
for the next tankful?



Its not really that simple. And if the attitude of then amateur operator
in question wasn't all that helpful then this isn't doing the image of
the hobby all that much good.

Is it reasonable to expect a lot of electronic equipment to operate in
the high fields strength levels that are sometimes radiated on the
amateur bands?.

It may well be that equipment's should be immune but is it reasonable to
expect them to be /that/ immune.

Otherwise this will become luggage on the anti mast's brigades campaigns
and that could well lead to this sort of activity being further
restricted ...

After all on Broadcast there are restrictions on what your permitted to
radiate in populated areas etc so...
--
Tony Sayer

Actually it is the fault of the manufacturer of the kit and ergo the
owner/user if it receives signals that are not intended for it. It is a
licencing requirement that any transmitting equipment must be spectrally
'clean' and any Radio Amateur is required to be able to demonstrate such
should a Radio Investigation Officer request it. This probably why, over
the last 10-20 years, 'home-brew' kit - with the possible exception of
QRP (very low power) equipment - has pretty well died in favour of black
boxes from the Far East which usually meet such spectral purity specs
with ease.

Beg to differ woody, thats because many haven't a clue how to make it
anymore;(...

Spectral purity IMHO very rarely comes into it, 'tis more with simple
brute overload..

--
Tony Sayer

In message , Rob Wilson
writes
Zaphod wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mar 1, 3:11 pm, Mota wrote:
I have the same issue with a guy living next door to me. When he's on
his HAM radio he comes through the speakers on my stereo, makes the TV
unwatchable and cuts off my broadband connection. I contacted the
RSGB (Kath Wilson) and was basically told that I was the one who had
all this faulty equipment and would need to purchase filters to try
and correct the issue. The guy causing the interference told me I
should have my house rewired! For some reason, I was suddenly the one
who was at fault ?? An innocent guy can't watch his own television or
go on the internet and it's my fault - I ain't causing the
interefence!
You are at liberty to watch your TV, go on the internet or listen to
your stereo.
However, if your broadband modem does not comply with the terms of
the CE approval with which it was issued, or if your stereo performs
in a manner outwith its specifications (as a radio receiver), or if
your TV doesn't meet the minimum regulatory EMC standards, then the
responsibility lies with you, and you alone.
Why should your neighbour spend his time and money fixing your
faulty equipment?
If your car ran out of petrol outside his house, would you expect
him to pay for the next tankful?

No that's wrong. Being an Engineer who has designed equipment to
satisfy the requirements of CE marking, it Trading Standards get a
whiff of it then they will become very interested. Of course if the
equipment was manufactured pre January 1996 then CE adherence does nto
apply, althought there are various EU standards which must have been
adhered to for it to get a ticket for going on sale.

Fortunately, instances of serious interference from radio amateurs to
domestic 'entertainment' equipment are fairly rare. Most can be cured by
'doing something' at the affected equipment end, but there also times
when the amateur can 'do things' to minimise the problem.

Unfortunately, because there are relatively few cases of such
interference, it's highly unlikely that Trading Standards will be
interested. It would be for the owner of the affected equipment to push
matters, and most don't bother.

The CE standards for domestic equipment are quite tough, int that they
must not radiate mush conductively or radially, nor should they be
susceptible to mush to a certain level. It sounds like if the HAM is
kicking lots of Watts of ERP then it's not surprising that the gear is
falling over.

You are wrong to assume that the radio amateur will be 'kicking out lots
of watts of ERP'. He might be, but it's only a minority who do. On most
of the amateur bands the maximum power allowed (even for holders of the
Full Licence) is 400W at the aerial feedpoint. On some bands, it is a
lot less. Few amateurs actually run anything like this amount of power.
A typical modern off-the-shelf Far Eastern HF transceiver puts out 100W.
Admittedly, some aerials do have gain, but these are essentially VHF and
UHF. Most HF aerials are some form of dipole of end-fed wire, and have
little gain (if any).

Of course, there are add-on linear amplifiers, and some amateurs do us
them, but such users are a relative minority.

Perhaps he should review his licence to broadcast

A radio amateur does not have a licence to 'broadcast'. It's to transmit
for the purpose of communicating with other amateur stations.

and see if he really is within his ticket.

It's extremely unlikely that the radio amateur will be operating outside
the terms of his licence (power-wise, or anything else). On the other
hand, it would be unwise for him to transmit regardless of the effect
his transmissions are having on other equipment. He is not obliged to
'fix' any equipment which is affected by his transmissions or do
anything else, but unless it can be shown that he is acting totally
unreasonably (which, in the end, Ofcom might be forced to decide), he
will be allowed to continue. As this is not a satisfactory state of
affairs, it behoves both parties to try to reach a mutually satisfactory
conclusion.
--
Ian

You are wrong to assume that the radio amateur will be 'kicking out lots
of watts of ERP'. He might be, but it's only a minority who do. On most
of the amateur bands the maximum power allowed (even for holders of the
Full Licence) is 400W at the aerial feedpoint.

This is 400 watts RF into the aerial feeder cable and what is or can be
hanging on the end of that?...


--
Tony Sayer