The Voice of Murdoch pronounces FM radio dead

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
BBC is highly dishonest wrote:
it took over 30 years for FM radios to become standard in British
cars and even then UK car manufacturers couldn't work out that a roof
aerial was a 'good thing'. The stylist thought it out to go on the
wing - according to BL.


Might have said this before but microchip fabrication wasn't around then
like it is now..


This is the 21st century. Take-up can be rapid these days - consider
DVD and digital TV and mobile phones. How things happened 30 or 40
years or more ago is not a good indicator of what would or should
happen now.

Changing a car radio for a different type to the one supplied as standard
these days can be very difficult or even just not practical. It is
*nothing* like just buying a DVD player or new phone. Not that I'd expect
a pseudo expert such as you to know anything about it. I doubt you even
own the sort of modern car I'm referring to.


Rather ironic how Dab came about for mobile reception yet sod all motors
have it fitted;!..
--
Tony Sayer

In article , Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The BBC is dishonest wrote:
The BBC has shown 21 high-impact TV advertising campaigns for DAB.
I've calculated that those advertising campaigns would have cost
around £150 million if they had been shown on commercial TV.

Crikey. Most would have better things to do.

I'd definitely have better things to do with £150 million.

Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

In article ,
BBC is highly dishonest wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message

In article ,
BBC is highly dishonest wrote:
it took over 30 years for FM radios to become standard in British
cars and even then UK car manufacturers couldn't work out that a
roof
aerial was a 'good thing'. The stylist thought it out to go on
the
wing - according to BL.


This is the 21st century. Take-up can be rapid these days -
consider
DVD and digital TV and mobile phones. How things happened 30 or 40
years or more ago is not a good indicator of what would or should
happen now.

Changing a car radio for a different type to the one supplied as
standard
these days can be very difficult or even just not practical. It is
*nothing* like just buying a DVD player or new phone. Not that I'd
expect
a pseudo expert such as you to know anything about it. I doubt you
even
own the sort of modern car I'm referring to.


I think I mentioned that it's difficult to retro-fit car stereos on
here, actually:

Then should have had more sense than to use the argument above.

--
*Bigamy is having one wife too many - monogamy is the same

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
BBC is highly dishonest wrote:
Ok, smartarse. Give some comparative costs of similar coverage DAB v
FM transmitters and any other hardware needed to Ofcom spec - and
power consumption.


It costs about £96k to transmit on a local DAB multiplex compared to
£60k for a big local FM station, less for smaller stations - in a
Guardian article recently, it was said by someone from a small radio
station (or maybe a group that owns small radio stations) that it
costs up to 15 times as much to transmit on DAB as on FM for smaller
stations.

And this amount is based purely on the cost of the equipment and the
running costs of it? Ie, the transmitters cost 15 times as much and use 15
times as much electricity? And require 15 times the maintenance? Etc?

--
*Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message

"The BBC is dishonest" wrote in
news:6umv3jFg9tkdU1
@mid.individual.net:

"Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message

"The BBC is dishonest" wrote in
:

Basically, Charles, DAB was supposed to be a system that would
eventually replace FM. They had to get it right first time. But
what
actually happened was that they couldn't have screwed it up more!
That's the BBC for ya, I'm afraid.

The UK is the only country in Europe where DAB has any mass market
acceptance, even though it's broadcasting in most countries, but
largely without any audience. The BBC must be doing something
right.


The BBC has shown 21 high-impact TV advertising campaigns for DAB.
I've calculated that those advertising campaigns would have cost
around £150 million if they had been shown on commercial TV.

People don't go out to buy stuff just because they've seen an
advert.


Many years ago, I worked as a stock control manager for a retailer,
and one of teh things I had to do was try and predict what increase in
sales would happen for products that were just about to be advertised
on TV, and you would typically see sales increase by a few hundred
percent, often over 1000%.

Anyway, here's a pdf that has actual costs for 30-second averts in it
on page 22:

http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/do.../ITV_Sales.pdf

e.g. £82.932 for a centre break ad for Coronation Street (a big UK
soap), £45k for ITV drama at 9.20pm.

Think about how many adverts you get per £1m. Not all that many.
Basically, TV adverts are as expensive as they are *because* they lead
to massive increases in sales.

The ONLY reason why DAB sales took off were because of the BBC's TV
adverts for DAB - they've broadcast 21 TV ad campaigns altogether,
including TV ad campaigns in the run up to Xmas in every year since
2002 apart from in 2006.

Furthermore, I could receive about the same number of stations in 2001
as I can receive now, and yet sales were very low in 2001.

The reason why sales were very low in 2001 was because only 1% of the
public had heard of DAB in 2001. It was the BBC's DAB TV ad campaigns
that changed that.

Sorry, you're very wrong if you think TV ads don't affect consumer
behaviour.


What makes DAB attractive in the UK is the fact that there are
channels
on DAB which you can't get on FM. That is a unique selling point.


Unique? There are 10,000+ stations on the Internet, around 100 on
satellite, but only typically around 35 on DAB. So why do more people
listen to digital radio via DAB than via teh Internet or via digital
TV??

Sorry, there is nothing unique about DAB providing extra channels.


Here
in Germany they don't do that. There are max. 16 stations per region
which is less than what you typically get on FM, therefore usually a
subset. Whereas in the UK (correct me if I'm wrong) you not only
have
all the BBC national radio channels that you also get on FM, but a
set
of additional channels that are DAB exclusive.


I'm not denying that providing extra stations is an attractive
feature. But you're dead wrong if you think that DAB sells *because*
of this. DAB would not have sold without the TV adverts. DAB would
also have failed by now if it wasn't for the BBC's TV adverts propping
DAB up.

Look at DAB's year-on-year sales growth:

http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/im...h_original.gif

DAB WOULD HAVE failed by now if it wasn't for the BBC's TV adverts
propping sales up.


8.5 million DAB receivers have been sold so far.

That is quite a lot don't you think?


No. There are estimated to be 150 million FM devices in-use in the UK,
so 8.5m is a small number in comparison.


The result is that the UK is the
only country which has a market for DAB radios. Here in Germany the
mainstream hifi brands don't even bother to sell DAB radios. If I
want
e.g. a Panasonic DAB, I have to mail order it from UK, because
Panasonic don't market any DAB in this country. And if I'm looking
for
a used one, I have to browse ebay.co.uk. You apparently aren't aware
what you have.


Aware of what we have? I'm well aware of what we have. We have an
outdated system that was incompetently adopted, which provides low
audio quailty and unreliable reception quality, and it is only being
propped up by the BBC's saturation TV advertising.

Count yourself lucky that Germany is in the process of launching DAB+,
not DAB!!



--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

The adoption of DAB was the most incompetent technical
decision ever made in the history of UK broadcasting:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...ion_of_dab.htm

"Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message

"The BBC is dishonest" wrote in
news:6umus2Fga0lsU1
@mid.individual.net:

"Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message

"The BBC is dishonest" wrote in
:

Stick to the subjects that you know about, because you know
nothing
about digital radio. The first DAB receiver didn't go on sale
until
2000, so if you're suggesting that they couldn't have upgraded
DAB
to
include AAC when development of AAC began in 1994, and it was
standardised in 1997, then I'm afraid you're wrong.

When you define a standard to be implemented in hundreds of radio
stations and millions of home appliances, you have to define it
with
what's possible at the time of conception.


No. If you define a standard that's intended to replace something
as
ubiquitous as FM, you have to get it *right*.

What is wrong with DAB as a standard?


http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/dab/dab_vs_dab+.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/dvb-h_dab_dmb.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/ec..._drm+_dvbh.htm


DAB was a case of technology push, not consumer pull.

Name an example that wasn't.


Fair enough, but I think you know what I mean really.


DAB was conceived too early. The intention was okay - provide radio
at
near CD-quality. But the technology wasn't ready to provide that.

Uncompressed digital radio has via satellite and cable has been
around
long before DAB.


So what?


The rest of Europe has been settled on DAB since the mid-90s.


Only the UK, Denmark and Norway support DAB. All other countries
will
use DAB+ or DMB-Audio. France is going to use DMB-Audio, Germany,
Switzerland, Sweden, Czech Republic, Italy plus others are going to
use DAB+.

I'm not aware of any such decisions.


http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/ar...dopts-DAB+.php
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/ar...ital-radio.php
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/ar...pting-DAB+.php
http://blogs.rnw.nl/medianetwork/swe...-old-fashioned


In Germany DAB is struggling to
survive at all.


Germany is supposed to be planning a "big bang" launch of DAB+ this
year - or at least that's what the German broadcasters have said.


Sorry, but you don't seem to understand the basics of what has
happened, or whcih standards different countries currently
support -
no-one is giong to use DAB now.

Could you source that claim?


Yeah, I'm the source.



--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

The adoption of DAB was the most incompetent technical
decision ever made in the history of UK broadcasting:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...ion_of_dab.htm

"Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message
news
"BBC is highly dishonest" wrote in
:

"charles" wrote in message

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:


A few countries have hardly settled on at standard. And if they
had
why
don't they standard fit DAB radios in vehicles?..

Because DAB is unpopular.

it took over 30 years for FM radios to become standard in British
cars and
even then UK car manufacturers couldn't work out that a roof
aerial
was a
'good thing'. The stylist thought it out to go on the wing -
according to
BL.


This is the 21st century. Take-up can be rapid these days -
consider
DVD and digital TV and mobile phones. How things happened 30 or 40
years or more ago is not a good indicator of what would or should
happen now.

But many other formats have failed. Take DAT, DCC, MD for example.


And your point is what? DAB would definitely have failed by now if it
wasn't for the BBC's TV adverts.


What
helps a format succeed is that the general audience sees an obvious
advantage in it, AND that it has the impression that it's going to
stay
around for a while instead of having built-in obsoletion.


How convenient you think that.


Format wars
help to stall a format. Rapid update cycles which render older
devices
useless do the same.


How convenient.



--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

The adoption of DAB was the most incompetent technical
decision ever made in the history of UK broadcasting:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...ion_of_dab.htm

"tony sayer" wrote in message

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
BBC is highly dishonest wrote:
FFS, DAB transmission costs are are a political thing. It's not
intrinsically more expensive to transmit.


Yes, it is more expensive to transmit. How they hell would you
know
anyway - you don't even know what equipment is needed!

Ok, smartarse. Give some comparative costs of similar coverage DAB
v FM
transmitters and any other hardware needed to Ofcom spec - and
power
consumption.

I'm willing to bet the true extra costs are *minimal* compared to
the
government set transmission licence fees.


Well for lets say a local system here in Cambridge. Take Heart
Cambridge
formerly Q103. 500 watts ERP around 30 odd K a year via Arqiva..

Local programme input equipment, processor- transmitter might have
spare
one on site, might not, RDS coder aerial filter etc and combiner
into
aerial.

DAB on a Multiplex with other services. Local processor in the
studio
signal sent down lines to a multiplexer point somewhere up in the
midlands IIRC..


The Cambridge multiplex is run by Now Digital, so it'll probably go to
Bristol where Now is based.


thence to a Band 3 transmitter ERP around 4 kW (coverage
still not as good as the FM service) aerial filters and aerial stack
all
by Arqiva.

Around 90 odd big ones IIRC but the same company Global own the MUX
so
some loot back to themselves. Some revenue to them from Magic and
Kiss
and BBC Cambridge.

Not a bad earner really .

Difficult to make exact comparisons.

Star FM locally quite a lot less than Heart.

Not on Dab prolly, can't or don't want to afford it, prolly 40 odd K
for
Mono more for 192 Stereo.. for the small number of extra listeners
on
that platform..


And by the time DAB listenership is a lot higher, Global will probably
have filled the empty 1.5 slots left on the Cambridge mux with their
own stations:

http://www.wohnort.demon.co.uk/DAB/ukloc.html#Cambs

Own the multiplex, control access to the multiplex. Why Ofcom thinks
this wouldn't be open to abuse I'm not entirely sure. Primetime was
chucked off Digital One when GCap wanted to get rid of them to free up
space for their failed mobile TV system, for example.



--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

The adoption of DAB was the most incompetent technical
decision ever made in the history of UK broadcasting:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...ion_of_dab.htm

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:23:41 +0000, BBC is highly dishonest wrote:
This is the 21st century. Take-up can be rapid these days

Because assembly lines can be readily set up in the PR of China and
there are excellent distribution and marketing facilities.

It will be most instructive to see how fast the take up of
DVB-t2 is in the UKofGB&NI since this is most definitely
technology push as most people are concerned, even though
it is a good thing.

consider DVD and digital TV and mobile phones.

And consider also DVD-audio.

"J G Miller" wrote in message

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:23:41 +0000, BBC is highly dishonest wrote:
This is the 21st century. Take-up can be rapid these days

Because assembly lines can be readily set up in the PR of China and
there are excellent distribution and marketing facilities.

It will be most instructive to see how fast the take up of
DVB-t2 is in the UKofGB&NI since this is most definitely
technology push as most people are concerned, even though
it is a good thing.


Take-up of DVB-T2 is required for watching HD on Freeview. So yes, it
will be interesting to see how fast take-up will be. I think it'll be
pretty good.


consider DVD and digital TV and mobile phones.

And consider also DVD-audio.


I said "Take-up can be rapid these days", not "take-up is always rapid
these days". Furthermore, DVD-Audio had virtually no marketing
support, which is very, very different to DAB.



--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

The adoption of DAB was the most incompetent technical
decision ever made in the history of UK broadcasting:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...ion_of_dab.htm