VCR record/play with digital tuner

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:53:16 -0800, dmaster wrote for every to trash:

On Jan 15, 2:40Â*pm, Chill Out wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:30:17 -0800, dmaster wrote for every to trash:





On Jan 15, 12:44Â*am, Chill Out wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:39:53 -0500, Dave Boland wrote for every to
trash:
...
Yes I agree with you. Â*You'd think by now new DVR, PVR, VCRs and
home theater receivers would include the digital tuners as standard.
Â*I have the cheapo converter boxes and the cheaper one is smart
enough to automatically switch aspect ratio but neither is a
programable tuner.

I believe that as of some time in early 2008, all TV devices made for
sale in the USA that include a tuner must include an ATSC tuner. Â*If
you purchased a tuner equipped device after that and the device did
not include an ATSC tuner, it should have been left over stock of an
older model.
Â*Â*
...

Dan (Woj...)

Yes the new TV devices takes care of VCRs and DVRs. My chief complaint
is that home theater makers don't include digital tuners. Â*Likewise I
don't know if these digital tuner DVRs and VCRs record ATSC in
multichannel DTS or Dolby Digital.

Isn't that the purpose of home theaters to play DTS and Dolby Digital?-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've only used the now discontinued Sony HD DVR, but that unit does
record whatever sound is being broadcast, including Dolby Digital 5.1.
If I'm not mistaken, my Panasonic DVD recorders (I don't have a unit
with both a VCR and an ATSC tuner) record in Dolby Pro Logic II. So I
still get surround sound from the recorded DVDs, just not necessarily as
good as the original broadcast. I'm unaware of anyone broadcasting
multichannel DTS, but I could be wrong.

Sony HD DVR using DVD disks or HD? If connected to a digital converter
will it still record 5.1 from over-the-air broadcasts? I'm using the
cheapo RCA and GE converter boxes with only stereo output plugs. May be
if I'd spent over $60 I could have gotten a box with digital audio output.


As far as "home theaters" go, I'm assuming you are referring to the
all-in-one "home theater in a box" concept. Those are really nothing
more than an audio receiver, DVD player, and speakers. Without
including a DVD recorder, I don't see why an ATSC tuner would be
included. The industry usually just never has included a TV tuner in a
receiver, even today's stand alone audio and video switching receivers.

Dan (Woj..)

Yes, all-in-one and standalone HT receivers. These are supposed to
switch multi-channel sound from DVD players, Blu-Ray players, cable for
TVs. I assume that if I watch "CSI" or "Jurassic Park" broadcast in HD
on a over-the-air channel shouldn't I get the 5.1 or DTS sound?

I was thinking that you buy a HT receiver or HT in a box it makes sense
to me they should build in ATSC tuners. A Panasonic HT in-a-box is $399
so for $15 Panasonic adds in an ATSC tuner and sells it for $450.

Most HT systems already include AM/FM tuners whats wrong with a AM/FM/
digital TV tuner? Some radios have analog TV tuners why not HT systems?

Chill Out wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:53:16 -0800, dmaster wrote for every to trash:

On Jan 15, 2:40 pm, Chill Out wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:30:17 -0800, dmaster wrote for every to trash:





On Jan 15, 12:44 am, Chill Out wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:39:53 -0500, Dave Boland wrote for every to
trash:
...
Yes I agree with you. You'd think by now new DVR, PVR, VCRs and
home theater receivers would include the digital tuners as standard.
I have the cheapo converter boxes and the cheaper one is smart
enough to automatically switch aspect ratio but neither is a
programable tuner.
I believe that as of some time in early 2008, all TV devices made for
sale in the USA that include a tuner must include an ATSC tuner. If
you purchased a tuner equipped device after that and the device did
not include an ATSC tuner, it should have been left over stock of an
older model.

...
Dan (Woj...)
Yes the new TV devices takes care of VCRs and DVRs. My chief complaint
is that home theater makers don't include digital tuners. Likewise I
don't know if these digital tuner DVRs and VCRs record ATSC in
multichannel DTS or Dolby Digital.

Isn't that the purpose of home theaters to play DTS and Dolby Digital?-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
I've only used the now discontinued Sony HD DVR, but that unit does
record whatever sound is being broadcast, including Dolby Digital 5.1.
If I'm not mistaken, my Panasonic DVD recorders (I don't have a unit
with both a VCR and an ATSC tuner) record in Dolby Pro Logic II. So I
still get surround sound from the recorded DVDs, just not necessarily as
good as the original broadcast. I'm unaware of anyone broadcasting
multichannel DTS, but I could be wrong.

Sony HD DVR using DVD disks or HD? If connected to a digital converter
will it still record 5.1 from over-the-air broadcasts? I'm using the
cheapo RCA and GE converter boxes with only stereo output plugs. May be
if I'd spent over $60 I could have gotten a box with digital audio output.

As far as "home theaters" go, I'm assuming you are referring to the
all-in-one "home theater in a box" concept. Those are really nothing
more than an audio receiver, DVD player, and speakers. Without
including a DVD recorder, I don't see why an ATSC tuner would be
included. The industry usually just never has included a TV tuner in a
receiver, even today's stand alone audio and video switching receivers.

Dan (Woj..)

Yes, all-in-one and standalone HT receivers. These are supposed to
switch multi-channel sound from DVD players, Blu-Ray players, cable for
TVs. I assume that if I watch "CSI" or "Jurassic Park" broadcast in HD
on a over-the-air channel shouldn't I get the 5.1 or DTS sound?

I was thinking that you buy a HT receiver or HT in a box it makes sense
to me they should build in ATSC tuners. A Panasonic HT in-a-box is $399
so for $15 Panasonic adds in an ATSC tuner and sells it for $450.

Most HT systems already include AM/FM tuners whats wrong with a AM/FM/
digital TV tuner? Some radios have analog TV tuners why not HT systems?


The audio for an analog TV program is broadcast on a different frequency
than the video is, so it's easy to build a simple audio receiver to tune
TV audio frequencies.

The audio for a digital TV program is mixed in with the video, it's not
on a different frequency. An audio only receiver would have to decode
the entire digital ATSC signal, toss out the video portion, leaving the
audio portion to listen to. While this is certainly possible, it's not
very likely someone will do it in a price range most would find acceptable.

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Chill Out wrote:

Sony HD DVR using DVD disks or HD? If connected to a digital converter will
it still record 5.1 from over-the-air broadcasts?

No coupon eligible converter boxes can put out anything other than
2-channel analog stereo. It's part of the rules. If you want a DVR that
does HD OTA and supports Dolby multi-channel sound, you need this:

http://www.dishnetwork.com/dtvpal/dvr.shtml

I'm using the cheapo RCA
and GE converter boxes with only stereo output plugs. May be if I'd spent
over $60 I could have gotten a box with digital audio output.

If you had spent a *LOT* more than $60, and no coupon.

Yes, all-in-one and standalone HT receivers. These are supposed to switch
multi-channel sound from DVD players, Blu-Ray players, cable for TVs. I
assume that if I watch "CSI" or "Jurassic Park" broadcast in HD on a
over-the-air channel shouldn't I get the 5.1 or DTS sound?

Yes, and you do if you have a decent AVR, and DO NOT use a CECB.

I was thinking that you buy a HT receiver or HT in a box it makes sense to
me they should build in ATSC tuners.

Why?

Most HT systems already include AM/FM tuners whats wrong with a AM/FM/
digital TV tuner? Some radios have analog TV tuners why not HT systems?

Getting audio from an ATSC signal is a far cry from getting audio from a
NTSC signal.

On Jan 16, 3:15*pm, Jer wrote:
snip
Most HT systems already include AM/FM tuners whats wrong with a
AM/FM/
digital TV tuner? *Some radios have analog TV tuners why not HT
systems?

The audio for an analog TV program is broadcast on a different
frequency
than the video is, so it's easy to build a simple audio receiver to
tune
TV audio frequencies.

The audio for a digital TV program is mixed in with the video, it's
not
on a different frequency. *An audio only receiver would have to
decode
the entire digital ATSC signal, toss out the video portion, leaving
the
audio portion to listen to. *While this is certainly possible, it's
not
very likely someone will do it in a price range most would find
acceptable.

--
jer

Do you think the manufacturers of the converter boxes are making a
profit? They sell converter boxes $60 disregarding the coupon. Last I
looked there were audio jacks on the back though _only_ analog. It's
clearly not a big deal to get the audio from ATSC.

G²

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:08:32 -0800, UCLAN wrote for every to trash:

Chill Out wrote:

Sony HD DVR using DVD disks or HD? If connected to a digital converter
will it still record 5.1 from over-the-air broadcasts?

No coupon eligible converter boxes can put out anything other than
2-channel analog stereo. It's part of the rules. If you want a DVR that
does HD OTA and supports Dolby multi-channel sound, you need this:

http://www.dishnetwork.com/dtvpal/dvr.shtml

I'm using the cheapo RCA
and GE converter boxes with only stereo output plugs. May be if I'd
spent over $60 I could have gotten a box with digital audio output.

If you had spent a *LOT* more than $60, and no coupon.

Yes, all-in-one and standalone HT receivers. These are supposed to
switch multi-channel sound from DVD players, Blu-Ray players, cable for
TVs. I assume that if I watch "CSI" or "Jurassic Park" broadcast in
HD on a over-the-air channel shouldn't I get the 5.1 or DTS sound?

Yes, and you do if you have a decent AVR, and DO NOT use a CECB.

I was thinking that you buy a HT receiver or HT in a box it makes sense
to me they should build in ATSC tuners.

Why?

Most HT systems already include AM/FM tuners whats wrong with a AM/FM/
digital TV tuner? Some radios have analog TV tuners why not HT
systems?

Getting audio from an ATSC signal is a far cry from getting audio from a
NTSC signal.

As G-squared pointed out, both of my converter boxes already output RCA
stereo audio with RCA video which seems a lot harder to do than 5.1
channel audio because they need to split the audio LF and RF from the
other channels.

Chill Out wrote:

As G-squared pointed out, both of my converter boxes already output RCA
stereo audio with RCA video which seems a lot harder to do than 5.1
channel audio because they need to split the audio LF and RF from the
other channels.

Not necessarily. The AC-3 bitstream, from which DD5.1 is decoded, is capable
of multiple audio steams. *IF* the DD5.1 is already decoded, the LF/RF analog
stereo would NOT be "stripped" from the rest of the channels, as the LF/RF
channels are void of much of the dialog and other audio assigned to other
channels in the 5.1 stream. The decoded 5.1 channels would simply be "down-
mixed" from 5.1 to 2 channel stereo. DVD and Blu-ray players do this rather
routine procedure. There are several ways to so. None are expensive.

But what's your point? This is totally irrelevant to your rant about including
ATSC tuners in AVRs, and avoids the point that by definition, a coupon
eligible digital converter box can ONLY have L/R analog stereo outputs.

On Jan 16, 3:25*pm, Chill Out wrote:
....
I've only used the now discontinued Sony HD DVR, but that unit does
record whatever sound is being broadcast, including Dolby Digital 5.1.
If I'm not mistaken, my Panasonic DVD recorders (I don't have a unit
with both a VCR and an ATSC tuner) record in Dolby Pro Logic II. So I
still get surround sound from the recorded DVDs, just not necessarily as
good as the original broadcast. *I'm unaware of anyone broadcasting
multichannel DTS, but I could be wrong.

Sony HD DVR using DVD disks or HD? If connected to a digital converter
will it still record 5.1 from over-the-air broadcasts? *I'm using the
cheapo RCA and GE converter boxes with only stereo output plugs. *May be
if I'd spent over $60 I could have gotten a box with digital audio output..

The Sony DVRs record to an internal HD. They have their own internal
ATSC/NTSC tuner and cannot record from an external tuner. If the
audio portion of an ATSC broadcast is 5.1, it will be recorded and
played back as 5.1. The Sony DVRs have a digital audio output.

....
As far as "home theaters" go, I'm assuming you are referring to the
all-in-one "home theater in a box" concept. *Those are really nothing
more than an audio receiver, DVD player, and speakers. *Without
including a DVD recorder, I don't see why an ATSC tuner would be
included. *The industry usually just never has included a TV tuner in a
receiver, even today's stand alone audio and video switching receivers.

Dan (Woj..)

Yes, all-in-one and standalone HT receivers. These are supposed to *
switch multi-channel sound from DVD players, Blu-Ray players, cable for
TVs. *I assume that if I watch "CSI" or "Jurassic Park" *broadcast in HD
on a over-the-air channel shouldn't I get the 5.1 or DTS sound?

If I watch a "CSI" or "Jurassic Park"*broadcast from my Sony DVR, I do
get 5.1 sound (live or recorded) from the digital audio output of the
DVR. In my case, I also have a digital audio output from my TV, so I
also get 5.1 sound when I watch the same "CSI" or "Jurassic Park"
broadcast live via my TV's ATSC tuner.


I was thinking that you buy a HT receiver or HT in a box it makes sense
to me they should build in ATSC tuners. *A Panasonic HT in-a-box is $399
so for $15 Panasonic adds in an ATSC tuner and sells it for $450. *

Most HT systems already include AM/FM tuners whats wrong with a AM/FM/
digital TV tuner? *Some radios have analog TV tuners why not HT systems

....

I can't say why not. I can only say that I'm unaware of any HT
receivers or HT in a box that do include an ATSC tuner. Perhaps its
because virtually all ATSC equipped TVs also have an audio out. (Some
down convert to Dolby Pro Logic on the standard base audio pair, while
others have a digital audio output that can carry the full 5.1.)

Dan (Woj...)

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:13:11 -0800, dmaster wrote for every to trash:

On Jan 16, 3:25Â*pm, Chill Out wrote: ...
I've only used the now discontinued Sony HD DVR, but that unit does
record whatever sound is being broadcast, including Dolby Digital
5.1. If I'm not mistaken, my Panasonic DVD recorders (I don't have a
unit with both a VCR and an ATSC tuner) record in Dolby Pro Logic II.
So I still get surround sound from the recorded DVDs, just not
necessarily as good as the original broadcast. Â*I'm unaware of anyone
broadcasting multichannel DTS, but I could be wrong.

Sony HD DVR using DVD disks or HD? If connected to a digital converter
will it still record 5.1 from over-the-air broadcasts? Â*I'm using the
cheapo RCA and GE converter boxes with only stereo output plugs. Â*May
be if I'd spent over $60 I could have gotten a box with digital audio
output.

The Sony DVRs record to an internal HD. They have their own internal
ATSC/NTSC tuner and cannot record from an external tuner. If the audio
portion of an ATSC broadcast is 5.1, it will be recorded and played back
as 5.1. The Sony DVRs have a digital audio output.

...
As far as "home theaters" go, I'm assuming you are referring to the
all-in-one "home theater in a box" concept. Â*Those are really nothing
more than an audio receiver, DVD player, and speakers. Â*Without
including a DVD recorder, I don't see why an ATSC tuner would be
included. Â*The industry usually just never has included a TV tuner in
a receiver, even today's stand alone audio and video switching
receivers.

Dan (Woj..)

Yes, all-in-one and standalone HT receivers. These are supposed to
switch multi-channel sound from DVD players, Blu-Ray players, cable for
TVs. Â*I assume that if I watch "CSI" or "Jurassic Park" Â*broadcast in
HD on a over-the-air channel shouldn't I get the 5.1 or DTS sound?

If I watch a "CSI" or "Jurassic Park"Â*broadcast from my Sony DVR, I do
get 5.1 sound (live or recorded) from the digital audio output of the
DVR. In my case, I also have a digital audio output from my TV, so I
also get 5.1 sound when I watch the same "CSI" or "Jurassic Park"
broadcast live via my TV's ATSC tuner.


I was thinking that you buy a HT receiver or HT in a box it makes sense
to me they should build in ATSC tuners. Â*A Panasonic HT in-a-box is
$399 so for $15 Panasonic adds in an ATSC tuner and sells it for $450.

Most HT systems already include AM/FM tuners whats wrong with a AM/FM/
digital TV tuner? Â*Some radios have analog TV tuners why not HT systems

...

I can't say why not. I can only say that I'm unaware of any HT
receivers or HT in a box that do include an ATSC tuner. Perhaps its
because virtually all ATSC equipped TVs also have an audio out. (Some
down convert to Dolby Pro Logic on the standard base audio pair, while
others have a digital audio output that can carry the full 5.1.)

Dan (Woj...)
Thanks for the explanations. I don't have a ATSC capable TV and I
suspect most of analog-digital converter users don't either. Adding the
ATSC tuner to a HT system still seems like a small thing.

If I get a HDTV, I'll have to upgrade my HT receiver to support HDMI
input/output. Umm, wasn't thinking because I should have gotten a HDTV
for the Olympics.

Chill Out wrote:

Thanks for the explanations. I don't have a ATSC capable TV and I
suspect most of analog-digital converter users don't either. Adding the
ATSC tuner to a HT system still seems like a small thing.

If I get a HDTV, I'll have to upgrade my HT receiver to support HDMI
input/output. Umm, wasn't thinking because I should have gotten a HDTV
for the Olympics.

These all have digital audio outputs, but aren't coupon eligible:

Panarex TR-100
PrimeDTV PHD-100, PHD-205
Samsung DTBH260F
Samsung SIR-T451
Sylvania 6900DTE
Tivax STB-T1
Winegard RC-1010

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:26:44 -0800, UCLAN wrote for every to trash:

Chill Out wrote:

Thanks for the explanations. I don't have a ATSC capable TV and I
suspect most of analog-digital converter users don't either. Adding
the ATSC tuner to a HT system still seems like a small thing.

If I get a HDTV, I'll have to upgrade my HT receiver to support HDMI
input/output. Umm, wasn't thinking because I should have gotten a HDTV
for the Olympics.

These all have digital audio outputs, but aren't coupon eligible:

Panarex TR-100
PrimeDTV PHD-100, PHD-205
Samsung DTBH260F
Samsung SIR-T451
Sylvania 6900DTE
Tivax STB-T1
Winegard RC-1010

Thanks for the list. I'll check those out.

Ouch!!! I see now, as someone else mentioned, I have the FCC or Congress
to thank for eliminating digital audio output from the coupon program.
Must have been the HDTV manufacturing lobby payoff to boost HDTV sales.