Difference between DTV and Digital TV

Dennis Mayer wrote:
Bruiser wrote:

Brad Houser wrote:
"Bruiser" wrote in message
...
I've been reading on www.hdtvpub.com that DTV should not be
confused with Digital TV, but I can't find exactly why. Could
someone please clear this up for me? Thanks.

I don't think there is any confusion.

DTV is sometimes used as a shorthand for DirecTV, the satellite
provider. While it is using a digital stream to send video and
audio, it has nothing to do with the Digital TV standards. It
should
be obvious from the context.

DTV usually means Digital TV, as defined by the ATSC (Advanced
Television Systems Committee). www.atsc.org is their web. They
created the standards for the 18 different digital television
formats:


http://support.gateway.com/s/CsmrElt...984faq42.shtml

If you could quote where it says there is a difference, I could
respond to that specifically.

Brad Houser

Brad,

I did mis-speak: while HDTVPub.com does use "DTV" to mean Digital
TV, the exact quote is:

"...please remember that digital cable is not DTV..."
(http://www.hdtvpub.com/reception/dtvcablecompany.cfm)

So if my cable company (Adelphia) is offering digital cable
reception, that only refers to the way it is piped in, but the
format remains the same? In other words, on an HDTV set with the
proper STB, would digital cable reception look any different that
regular analog? I know it wouldn't be or look like high def, but
would there be any inherent benefit in upgrading my service to a
digital package if I didn't particularly care for the channel
lineup (Adelphia will rent me the STB for $9.95/mo in order to
receive local station in high def, without having to do the entire
upgrade to digital cable)?

My understanding is that digital cable allows the cable company to
increase the bandwidth and broadcast more channels with crisper
audio, but that's about it. Is this correct?

Bruce

All Cable TV Programs, be they Analog, Digital, or Hi Def Digital

run thru the same cable but as Groups of channels at Different
Frequencies.

Do not buy the SD Digital Package... This does not guarantee a
Super

Picture ie: SD (Std Def). Purchase the Cable Analog package

plus the Hi Def package to get the best bang for the Cable
Buck...

The Cable Hi Def 'QAM' Box may rent for $8/ month...


Thanks, that's what I needed to know (I believe Adelphia's HDTV basic
package is $9.95/mo. on top of the ~$42 I'm spending on the classic cable
package).

So, back to basics: digital cable is pretty much pointless, quality-wise.
Digital TV, however, is the means by which HDTV can be broadcast, although
most stations do not do that exclusively (with the exception of PBS, I
guess), correct? So any station ID'd as, for instance, "Kxxx-DT" will be
broadcasting in 480p, which will be upped to 720p (or 1080i) for HD
content?

Guess you can tell I'm pretty new to all this.

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 17:57:38 -0700, "Bruiser" wrote:

Dennis Mayer wrote:
Bruiser wrote:

Brad Houser wrote:
"Bruiser" wrote in message
...
I've been reading on www.hdtvpub.com that DTV should not be
confused with Digital TV, but I can't find exactly why. Could
someone please clear this up for me? Thanks.

I don't think there is any confusion.

DTV is sometimes used as a shorthand for DirecTV, the satellite
provider. While it is using a digital stream to send video and
audio, it has nothing to do with the Digital TV standards. It
should
be obvious from the context.

DTV usually means Digital TV, as defined by the ATSC (Advanced
Television Systems Committee). www.atsc.org is their web. They
created the standards for the 18 different digital television
formats:


http://support.gateway.com/s/CsmrElt...984faq42.shtml

If you could quote where it says there is a difference, I could
respond to that specifically.

Brad Houser

Brad,

I did mis-speak: while HDTVPub.com does use "DTV" to mean Digital
TV, the exact quote is:

"...please remember that digital cable is not DTV..."
(http://www.hdtvpub.com/reception/dtvcablecompany.cfm)

So if my cable company (Adelphia) is offering digital cable
reception, that only refers to the way it is piped in, but the
format remains the same? In other words, on an HDTV set with the
proper STB, would digital cable reception look any different that
regular analog? I know it wouldn't be or look like high def, but
would there be any inherent benefit in upgrading my service to a
digital package if I didn't particularly care for the channel
lineup (Adelphia will rent me the STB for $9.95/mo in order to
receive local station in high def, without having to do the entire
upgrade to digital cable)?

My understanding is that digital cable allows the cable company to
increase the bandwidth and broadcast more channels with crisper
audio, but that's about it. Is this correct?

Bruce

All Cable TV Programs, be they Analog, Digital, or Hi Def Digital

run thru the same cable but as Groups of channels at Different
Frequencies.

Do not buy the SD Digital Package... This does not guarantee a
Super

Picture ie: SD (Std Def). Purchase the Cable Analog package

plus the Hi Def package to get the best bang for the Cable
Buck...

The Cable Hi Def 'QAM' Box may rent for $8/ month...


Thanks, that's what I needed to know (I believe Adelphia's HDTV basic
package is $9.95/mo. on top of the ~$42 I'm spending on the classic cable
package).

So, back to basics: digital cable is pretty much pointless, quality-wise.

Digital cable signals are generally over compressed to the point
that either Direct Tv and Dish sat signals will look better.

Direct Tv and Dish maintain better QC on their digital signals.
For the most part they run all their nationally distributed signals
out of a central uplink location. That significantly reduces the
manpower needed to monitor signals.

Cable maintains hundreds, if not thousands of head ends. Which
would require tens of thousands of QC personal to match the SAT
providers. Since they don't have the desire or the money, they will
make additional compromises in quality.

Another nasty problem for Cable co's is that a significant portion
of their distribution system is tied up sending old style NTSC
signals.

Digital TV, however, is the means by which HDTV can be broadcast, although
most stations do not do that exclusively (with the exception of PBS, I
guess), correct? So any station ID'd as, for instance, "Kxxx-DT" will be
broadcasting in 480p, which will be upped to 720p (or 1080i) for HD
content?

As for receiving local digital (H)DTV broadcasts. For the most
part, cable co's can't improve it over what you can get at your house
using a low cost antenna setup. That is one reason why (H)DTV SAT
receiver set tops come with built in (8VSB) OTA tuners.

You put up you own antenna, pickup the local (H)DTV broadcasts for
free, and skip paying the Cable piggy. :-)

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 17:57:38 -0700, "Bruiser" wrote:

Dennis Mayer wrote:
Bruiser wrote:

Brad Houser wrote:
"Bruiser" wrote in message
...
I've been reading on www.hdtvpub.com that DTV should not be
confused with Digital TV, but I can't find exactly why. Could
someone please clear this up for me? Thanks.

I don't think there is any confusion.

DTV is sometimes used as a shorthand for DirecTV, the satellite
provider. While it is using a digital stream to send video and
audio, it has nothing to do with the Digital TV standards. It
should
be obvious from the context.

DTV usually means Digital TV, as defined by the ATSC (Advanced
Television Systems Committee). www.atsc.org is their web. They
created the standards for the 18 different digital television
formats:


http://support.gateway.com/s/CsmrElt...984faq42.shtml

If you could quote where it says there is a difference, I could
respond to that specifically.

Brad Houser

Brad,

I did mis-speak: while HDTVPub.com does use "DTV" to mean Digital
TV, the exact quote is:

"...please remember that digital cable is not DTV..."
(http://www.hdtvpub.com/reception/dtvcablecompany.cfm)

So if my cable company (Adelphia) is offering digital cable
reception, that only refers to the way it is piped in, but the
format remains the same? In other words, on an HDTV set with the
proper STB, would digital cable reception look any different that
regular analog? I know it wouldn't be or look like high def, but
would there be any inherent benefit in upgrading my service to a
digital package if I didn't particularly care for the channel
lineup (Adelphia will rent me the STB for $9.95/mo in order to
receive local station in high def, without having to do the entire
upgrade to digital cable)?

My understanding is that digital cable allows the cable company to
increase the bandwidth and broadcast more channels with crisper
audio, but that's about it. Is this correct?

Bruce

All Cable TV Programs, be they Analog, Digital, or Hi Def Digital

run thru the same cable but as Groups of channels at Different
Frequencies.

Do not buy the SD Digital Package... This does not guarantee a
Super

Picture ie: SD (Std Def). Purchase the Cable Analog package

plus the Hi Def package to get the best bang for the Cable
Buck...

The Cable Hi Def 'QAM' Box may rent for $8/ month...


Thanks, that's what I needed to know (I believe Adelphia's HDTV basic
package is $9.95/mo. on top of the ~$42 I'm spending on the classic cable
package).

So, back to basics: digital cable is pretty much pointless, quality-wise.

Digital cable signals are generally over compressed to the point
that either Direct Tv and Dish sat signals will look better.

Direct Tv and Dish maintain better QC on their digital signals.
For the most part they run all their nationally distributed signals
out of a central uplink location. That significantly reduces the
manpower needed to monitor signals.

Cable maintains hundreds, if not thousands of head ends. Which
would require tens of thousands of QC personal to match the SAT
providers. Since they don't have the desire or the money, they will
make additional compromises in quality.

Another nasty problem for Cable co's is that a significant portion
of their distribution system is tied up sending old style NTSC
signals.

Digital TV, however, is the means by which HDTV can be broadcast, although
most stations do not do that exclusively (with the exception of PBS, I
guess), correct? So any station ID'd as, for instance, "Kxxx-DT" will be
broadcasting in 480p, which will be upped to 720p (or 1080i) for HD
content?

As for receiving local digital (H)DTV broadcasts. For the most
part, cable co's can't improve it over what you can get at your house
using a low cost antenna setup. That is one reason why (H)DTV SAT
receiver set tops come with built in (8VSB) OTA tuners.

You put up you own antenna, pickup the local (H)DTV broadcasts for
free, and skip paying the Cable piggy. :-)

Tim Keating wrote:
SNIP

So, back to basics: digital cable is pretty much pointless,
quality-wise.

Digital cable signals are generally over compressed to the point
that either Direct Tv and Dish sat signals will look better.

Direct Tv and Dish maintain better QC on their digital signals.
For the most part they run all their nationally distributed signals
out of a central uplink location. That significantly reduces the
manpower needed to monitor signals.

Cable maintains hundreds, if not thousands of head ends. Which
would require tens of thousands of QC personal to match the SAT
providers. Since they don't have the desire or the money, they will
make additional compromises in quality.

Another nasty problem for Cable co's is that a significant
portion
of their distribution system is tied up sending old style NTSC
signals.

Digital TV, however, is the means by which HDTV can be broadcast,
although most stations do not do that exclusively (with the
exception of PBS, I guess), correct? So any station ID'd as, for
instance, "Kxxx-DT" will be broadcasting in 480p, which will be
upped to 720p (or 1080i) for HD content?

As for receiving local digital (H)DTV broadcasts. For the most
part, cable co's can't improve it over what you can get at your house
using a low cost antenna setup. That is one reason why (H)DTV SAT
receiver set tops come with built in (8VSB) OTA tuners.

You put up you own antenna, pickup the local (H)DTV broadcasts for
free, and skip paying the Cable piggy. :-)

Thanks for the info, Tim. The nice thing about the cable route is that you
don't have to buy a STB. But the stations offered are so surprising meager,
it almost cancels that out.

I would gladly invest in a STB (even a DirectTV compatible one) if I could
assured that OTA reception would be acceptable. Using a fairly standard
RadioShack indoor aerial for NTSC reception provides very mediocre results,
and I don't know if that would translate to(H)DTV reception or not.

BTW, why is it that satellite systems don't pick up local HD broadcasts? Is
it a technical issue or more of a licensing one?

Tim Keating wrote:
SNIP

So, back to basics: digital cable is pretty much pointless,
quality-wise.

Digital cable signals are generally over compressed to the point
that either Direct Tv and Dish sat signals will look better.

Direct Tv and Dish maintain better QC on their digital signals.
For the most part they run all their nationally distributed signals
out of a central uplink location. That significantly reduces the
manpower needed to monitor signals.

Cable maintains hundreds, if not thousands of head ends. Which
would require tens of thousands of QC personal to match the SAT
providers. Since they don't have the desire or the money, they will
make additional compromises in quality.

Another nasty problem for Cable co's is that a significant
portion
of their distribution system is tied up sending old style NTSC
signals.

Digital TV, however, is the means by which HDTV can be broadcast,
although most stations do not do that exclusively (with the
exception of PBS, I guess), correct? So any station ID'd as, for
instance, "Kxxx-DT" will be broadcasting in 480p, which will be
upped to 720p (or 1080i) for HD content?

As for receiving local digital (H)DTV broadcasts. For the most
part, cable co's can't improve it over what you can get at your house
using a low cost antenna setup. That is one reason why (H)DTV SAT
receiver set tops come with built in (8VSB) OTA tuners.

You put up you own antenna, pickup the local (H)DTV broadcasts for
free, and skip paying the Cable piggy. :-)

Thanks for the info, Tim. The nice thing about the cable route is that you
don't have to buy a STB. But the stations offered are so surprising meager,
it almost cancels that out.

I would gladly invest in a STB (even a DirectTV compatible one) if I could
assured that OTA reception would be acceptable. Using a fairly standard
RadioShack indoor aerial for NTSC reception provides very mediocre results,
and I don't know if that would translate to(H)DTV reception or not.

BTW, why is it that satellite systems don't pick up local HD broadcasts? Is
it a technical issue or more of a licensing one?

"Bruiser" wrote in message
...
I did mis-speak: while HDTVPub.com does use "DTV" to mean Digital TV, the
exact quote is:

"...please remember that digital cable is not DTV..."
(http://www.hdtvpub.com/reception/dtvcablecompany.cfm)

So if my cable company (Adelphia) is offering digital cable reception,
that
only refers to the way it is piped in, but the format remains the same?

Pretty much. You still end up with 480i NTSC. The benefit is they get to
squeeze more channels in, and charge you more. The drawback is you need
their box ("cable ready" no longer applies). The channels _MAY_ look better
than analog (if you are on a noisy system or far from the head end) or it
could look worse, especially if they overcompress the picture.

In
other words, on an HDTV set with the proper STB, would digital cable
reception look any different that regular analog?

Most people can not tell the difference.

I know it wouldn't be or
look like high def, but would there be any inherent benefit in upgrading
my
service to a digital package if I didn't particularly care for the channel
lineup (Adelphia will rent me the STB for $9.95/mo in order to receive
local
station in high def, without having to do the entire upgrade to digital
cable)?

If you want HD see if you can only pay for that. If you don't care about the
digital channel lineup, then you won't get the other channels to look any
better, they stay analog. The STB still uses the analog channels, it also
decodes the digital channels.


My understanding is that digital cable allows the cable company to
increase
the bandwidth and broadcast more channels with crisper audio, but that's
about it. Is this correct?

You got it.

The "good" news is the cable industry and the FCC have agreed on a new
digital cable standard that will support HDTV and SDTV and allow new TVs to
include a standard digital tuner and "cable card" so you won't need a STB.
(The carda allows them to control access of course.) I say good in quotes,
because it remains to be seen how well this is embraced, as it will most
likely require some transition period where some boxes break and new ones
can't take advantage of the bandwidth until the old boxes are gone. Plus,
like HDTV, buyers aren't going to switch overnight. So we will see if this
actually ends up working as intended. Maybe in 20 years, but who knows?

Brad Houser

Bruce

"Bruiser" wrote in message
...
I did mis-speak: while HDTVPub.com does use "DTV" to mean Digital TV, the
exact quote is:

"...please remember that digital cable is not DTV..."
(http://www.hdtvpub.com/reception/dtvcablecompany.cfm)

So if my cable company (Adelphia) is offering digital cable reception,
that
only refers to the way it is piped in, but the format remains the same?

Pretty much. You still end up with 480i NTSC. The benefit is they get to
squeeze more channels in, and charge you more. The drawback is you need
their box ("cable ready" no longer applies). The channels _MAY_ look better
than analog (if you are on a noisy system or far from the head end) or it
could look worse, especially if they overcompress the picture.

In
other words, on an HDTV set with the proper STB, would digital cable
reception look any different that regular analog?

Most people can not tell the difference.

I know it wouldn't be or
look like high def, but would there be any inherent benefit in upgrading
my
service to a digital package if I didn't particularly care for the channel
lineup (Adelphia will rent me the STB for $9.95/mo in order to receive
local
station in high def, without having to do the entire upgrade to digital
cable)?

If you want HD see if you can only pay for that. If you don't care about the
digital channel lineup, then you won't get the other channels to look any
better, they stay analog. The STB still uses the analog channels, it also
decodes the digital channels.


My understanding is that digital cable allows the cable company to
increase
the bandwidth and broadcast more channels with crisper audio, but that's
about it. Is this correct?

You got it.

The "good" news is the cable industry and the FCC have agreed on a new
digital cable standard that will support HDTV and SDTV and allow new TVs to
include a standard digital tuner and "cable card" so you won't need a STB.
(The carda allows them to control access of course.) I say good in quotes,
because it remains to be seen how well this is embraced, as it will most
likely require some transition period where some boxes break and new ones
can't take advantage of the bandwidth until the old boxes are gone. Plus,
like HDTV, buyers aren't going to switch overnight. So we will see if this
actually ends up working as intended. Maybe in 20 years, but who knows?

Brad Houser

Bruce

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:49:44 -0700, "Bruiser" wrote:

Tim Keating wrote:
SNIP

So, back to basics: digital cable is pretty much pointless,
quality-wise.

Digital cable signals are generally over compressed to the point
that either Direct Tv and Dish sat signals will look better.

Direct Tv and Dish maintain better QC on their digital signals.
For the most part they run all their nationally distributed signals
out of a central uplink location. That significantly reduces the
manpower needed to monitor signals.

Cable maintains hundreds, if not thousands of head ends. Which
would require tens of thousands of QC personal to match the SAT
providers. Since they don't have the desire or the money, they will
make additional compromises in quality.

Another nasty problem for Cable co's is that a significant
portion
of their distribution system is tied up sending old style NTSC
signals.

Digital TV, however, is the means by which HDTV can be broadcast,
although most stations do not do that exclusively (with the
exception of PBS, I guess), correct? So any station ID'd as, for
instance, "Kxxx-DT" will be broadcasting in 480p, which will be
upped to 720p (or 1080i) for HD content?

As for receiving local digital (H)DTV broadcasts. For the most
part, cable co's can't improve it over what you can get at your house
using a low cost antenna setup. That is one reason why (H)DTV SAT
receiver set tops come with built in (8VSB) OTA tuners.

You put up you own antenna, pickup the local (H)DTV broadcasts for
free, and skip paying the Cable piggy. :-)

Thanks for the info, Tim. The nice thing about the cable route is that you
don't have to buy a STB. But the stations offered are so surprising meager,
it almost cancels that out.

I would gladly invest in a STB (even a DirectTV compatible one) if I could
assured that OTA reception would be acceptable. Using a fairly standard
RadioShack indoor aerial for NTSC reception provides very mediocre results,
and I don't know if that would translate to(H)DTV reception or not.

Indoor aerials and modern construction techniques don't mix well.

Lots of metal in today's buildings.. metal wall studs, stucco
backing, rebar all bonded together, etc..each of which can
significantly reduce one's ability to receive RF signals.

Plug your zip code into www.antennaweb.org to find out what type of
outside antenna you'll need. Note: Don't overdue it and buy too much
antenna.. it can work against you.

I use a dinky Radio shack 15-2160 to pull in (H)DTV stations over 60
miles away. :-)

Modern OTA (H)DTV receivers can pull in digital signals that if they
were broadcast in NTSC (old style),would be considered unwatchable by
most people.


BTW, why is it that satellite systems don't pick up local HD broadcasts? Is
it a technical issue or more of a licensing one?

1. It would be redundant, since OTA (H)DTV is easy to receive, and
digital perfect. (Reduces the market value for alternative methods. )

2. It would require huge amounts of bandwidth.. (cost)
(At least 8 to 15x more sat transponders, which they don't
have and can't get. )

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:49:44 -0700, "Bruiser" wrote:

Tim Keating wrote:
SNIP

So, back to basics: digital cable is pretty much pointless,
quality-wise.

Digital cable signals are generally over compressed to the point
that either Direct Tv and Dish sat signals will look better.

Direct Tv and Dish maintain better QC on their digital signals.
For the most part they run all their nationally distributed signals
out of a central uplink location. That significantly reduces the
manpower needed to monitor signals.

Cable maintains hundreds, if not thousands of head ends. Which
would require tens of thousands of QC personal to match the SAT
providers. Since they don't have the desire or the money, they will
make additional compromises in quality.

Another nasty problem for Cable co's is that a significant
portion
of their distribution system is tied up sending old style NTSC
signals.

Digital TV, however, is the means by which HDTV can be broadcast,
although most stations do not do that exclusively (with the
exception of PBS, I guess), correct? So any station ID'd as, for
instance, "Kxxx-DT" will be broadcasting in 480p, which will be
upped to 720p (or 1080i) for HD content?

As for receiving local digital (H)DTV broadcasts. For the most
part, cable co's can't improve it over what you can get at your house
using a low cost antenna setup. That is one reason why (H)DTV SAT
receiver set tops come with built in (8VSB) OTA tuners.

You put up you own antenna, pickup the local (H)DTV broadcasts for
free, and skip paying the Cable piggy. :-)

Thanks for the info, Tim. The nice thing about the cable route is that you
don't have to buy a STB. But the stations offered are so surprising meager,
it almost cancels that out.

I would gladly invest in a STB (even a DirectTV compatible one) if I could
assured that OTA reception would be acceptable. Using a fairly standard
RadioShack indoor aerial for NTSC reception provides very mediocre results,
and I don't know if that would translate to(H)DTV reception or not.

Indoor aerials and modern construction techniques don't mix well.

Lots of metal in today's buildings.. metal wall studs, stucco
backing, rebar all bonded together, etc..each of which can
significantly reduce one's ability to receive RF signals.

Plug your zip code into www.antennaweb.org to find out what type of
outside antenna you'll need. Note: Don't overdue it and buy too much
antenna.. it can work against you.

I use a dinky Radio shack 15-2160 to pull in (H)DTV stations over 60
miles away. :-)

Modern OTA (H)DTV receivers can pull in digital signals that if they
were broadcast in NTSC (old style),would be considered unwatchable by
most people.


BTW, why is it that satellite systems don't pick up local HD broadcasts? Is
it a technical issue or more of a licensing one?

1. It would be redundant, since OTA (H)DTV is easy to receive, and
digital perfect. (Reduces the market value for alternative methods. )

2. It would require huge amounts of bandwidth.. (cost)
(At least 8 to 15x more sat transponders, which they don't
have and can't get. )

Brad Houser wrote:
"Bruiser" wrote in message
...
I did mis-speak: while HDTVPub.com does use "DTV" to mean Digital
TV, the exact quote is:

"...please remember that digital cable is not DTV..."
(http://www.hdtvpub.com/reception/dtvcablecompany.cfm)

So if my cable company (Adelphia) is offering digital cable
reception, that only refers to the way it is piped in, but the
format remains the same?

Pretty much. You still end up with 480i NTSC. The benefit is they
get to squeeze more channels in, and charge you more. The drawback
is you need their box ("cable ready" no longer applies). The
channels _MAY_ look better than analog (if you are on a noisy system
or far from the head end) or it could look worse, especially if they
overcompress the picture.

In
other words, on an HDTV set with the proper STB, would digital cable
reception look any different that regular analog?

Most people can not tell the difference.

I know it wouldn't be or
look like high def, but would there be any inherent benefit in
upgrading my service to a digital package if I didn't particularly
care for the channel lineup (Adelphia will rent me the STB for
$9.95/mo in order to receive local station in high def, without
having to do the entire upgrade to digital cable)?

If you want HD see if you can only pay for that. If you don't care
about the digital channel lineup, then you won't get the other
channels to look any better, they stay analog. The STB still uses
the analog channels, it also decodes the digital channels.


My understanding is that digital cable allows the cable company to
increase the bandwidth and broadcast more channels with crisper
audio, but that's about it. Is this correct?

You got it.

The "good" news is the cable industry and the FCC have agreed on a
new digital cable standard that will support HDTV and SDTV and allow
new TVs to include a standard digital tuner and "cable card" so you
won't need a STB. (The carda allows them to control access of
course.) I say good in quotes, because it remains to be seen how
well this is embraced, as it will most likely require some
transition period where some boxes break and new ones can't take
advantage of the bandwidth until the old boxes are gone. Plus, like
HDTV, buyers aren't going to switch overnight. So we will see if
this actually ends up working as intended. Maybe in 20 years, but
who knows?

Brad Houser

Thanks, Brad. As I indicated in my response to Tim, I'll give Adelphia a go
with just the HD lineup (slim pickings here in LA unfortunately), but will
also look into OTA and satellite. I'm limited to an indoor aerial which
might not be good enough, but I'd rather have sports channels than local
stations if I'm forced to choose. We'll see.

Bruce