Commercial Skip with TIVO HD

(MegaZone) wrote:

CF shaped the electrons to say:
The ONLY way that Tivo can/will ever ultimately compete solidly
against the cable company units is to provide the *best* DVR by far -
so good that the Tivo users rave about it to those who don't know any
better. If all they do is provide cable company quality with some
goofy, external, revenue-generating addons, then they will lose out in
the end.

You mean like most TiVo owners do *now*, and have been doing for
years? What rock have you been under?

Well, not under the rock where the self-apppointed, self-congratulatory,
flawed-argument-emitting internet experts live. Did you take a survey
that accurately informs you what "most" Tivo owners do? I'd bet not.
The probable thing is that "most" Tivo owners have been (for years now)
raving about DVR technology and that those with Tivo raved about theirs
and those with Replays raved about theirs.

The fact that the name "Tivo" has become the household word for DVR does
*not* automatically mean that "most" Tivo owners are wearing Tivo
t-shirts around and camping outside the Tivo store awaiting the newest
models.

If you think all they do is 'provide cable company qualituy' then
you're severely disconnected from reality.

My point was that unless they offer something noticeably, considerably
BETTER than cable company DVRs then Tivo will lose out to the cable
companies on this.

And once again, end users who have NO BASIS FOR COMPARISON are not
people whose opinions matter on this. Why is that hard to understand? If
you've been starving for ten years, a bucket of tree bark soup is yummy
as hell. If you've been eating real food, however... In the
land of the ignorant the one-idea man is king.

Look, I'm not saying that Tivo, per se, is awful. I am saying that
it could be much better. Do you really think that the Tivo interface is
"being all that it can be"? Really?? Or do you think that with Tivo we
are in the presence of UI perfection incarnate and that we should all be
bowing down daily towards San Jose?

CF

On 2008-10-05, CF wrote:
(MegaZone) wrote:

CF shaped the electrons to say:
The ONLY way that Tivo can/will ever ultimately compete solidly
against the cable company units is to provide the *best* DVR by far -
so good that the Tivo users rave about it to those who don't know any
better. If all they do is provide cable company quality with some
goofy, external, revenue-generating addons, then they will lose out in
the end.

You mean like most TiVo owners do *now*, and have been doing for
years? What rock have you been under?

Well, not under the rock where the self-apppointed, self-congratulatory,
flawed-argument-emitting internet experts live. Did you take a survey
that accurately informs you what "most" Tivo owners do? I'd bet not.
The probable thing is that "most" Tivo owners have been (for years now)
raving about DVR technology and that those with Tivo raved about theirs
and those with Replays raved about theirs.

The fact that the name "Tivo" has become the household word for DVR does
*not* automatically mean that "most" Tivo owners are wearing Tivo
t-shirts around and camping outside the Tivo store awaiting the newest
models.

If you think all they do is 'provide cable company qualituy' then
you're severely disconnected from reality.

My point was that unless they offer something noticeably, considerably
BETTER than cable company DVRs then Tivo will lose out to the cable
companies on this.

And once again, end users who have NO BASIS FOR COMPARISON are not
people whose opinions matter on this. Why is that hard to understand? If
you've been starving for ten years, a bucket of tree bark soup is yummy
as hell. If you've been eating real food, however... In the
land of the ignorant the one-idea man is king.

Look, I'm not saying that Tivo, per se, is awful. I am saying that
it could be much better. Do you really think that the Tivo interface is
"being all that it can be"? Really?? Or do you think that with Tivo we
are in the presence of UI perfection incarnate and that we should all be
bowing down daily towards San Jose?

Surely one of the things we can agree on, after all the interminable
debates among Replay, TiVo, Ultima, etc users, is that different folks
value different user interface features differently!

Unless you want to go the route of customizable interfaces, which TiVo
decidedly does not, you're not going to satisfy all your customers. TiVo
offers a simple elegant interface that satisfies most (especially
non-techy) users.

I've been reading www.tivocommunity.com for 8 years now; I've got a
pretty good idea of what newcomers from other DVRs want and expect.
There are small things that TiVo could offer to improve (eg, showing
icons for shows to be recorded in the guides, as has been noted). But
I see nothing in the interface area that will drive large numbers of
people to convert. Any large improvements here - even if possible -
will not be long term advantages for TiVo; for example the cable DVRs
now are much closer in quality than they used to be.

And don't forget, while we may not have the data about what people do,
TiVo does. They know exactly how long it takes on average for a user
to accomplish some information seeking task, based on the anonymous
information they collect (every remote click). They've got much more
data than most DVR companies, and have used it.

TiVo has chosen to distinguish itself from other DVRs by offering a
consistent user interface to media other than TV shows. That's
something that can drive conversion of people to TiVo - user interface
can't any more, IMO. What other consumer DVRs offer access, via the
DVR, to YouTube, podcasts, networked photos, your music, networked
music services, music videos, internet radio, downloaded movies
(rental and purchase) and undoubtedly other things I'm forgetting?

The user interface to the non-TV media, all accessible on the TV, is
where the TiVo interface is currently far above any other consumer DVR,
and is where they're concentrating their user interface efforts (eg
SwivelSearch).

Chris

Well, not under the rock where the self-apppointed, self-congratulatory,
flawed-argument-emitting internet experts live. Did you take a survey
that accurately informs you what "most" Tivo owners do? I'd bet not.

As opposed to you? Sitting there pulling it outta yer ass?

(Stephen Harris) shaped the electrons to say:
You didn't list UltimateTV there; that was better, IMHO, for creating the
recording :-)

Man, I haven't seen an UltimateTV in years, maybe 2002?

1) Highlight conflict resolution better, especially if a conflicting show
can't be rescheduled, in the ToDo list

There are limits to what I think you can readily do on the TV scree
nand with a remote, but I've suggested that they do this kind of thing
via their website. Give us opt-in to having out data uploaded to the
server (which I want for backup anyway) and then they can give us all
kinds of abilities with an AJAX web front end to see conflicts and
change sheduling, coordinate between multiple TiVos, etc.

Another way to handle it would be exposing all that information via an
API on the TiVo and let 3rd parties build the tools, ala DVArchive.
TiVo could do some of it in TiVo Desktop.

2) "View Upcoming" should be limitted to the channel the Season
Pass is created for. If I've created a Season Pass for "House" on Fox
then I don't want the screen filled with the repeat showings from
previous seasons on other channels (they're _not_ upcoming for this
season pass!). If the functionality needs to be kept then make two
options ("View upcoming" and "View upcoming on all channels")

If they do this I think it needs to be a toggle, I use it as it is
now. For example, if a conflict means I can't record a show on NBC a
lot of their big shows re-air on USA within a week so I use that to go
in and schedule the other recording. Similar things happen with
Discovery and Science, etc.

But it does confuse users, especially new users, so I could see making
it default only to the current channel, with a toggle to show all
channels.

3) Mark "to be recorded" in the guide view (a little red dot would be
nice; a broken red dot to show conflict... see 1)

Complete agreement.

4) Optional external infra-red qwerty keyboard, to make typing easier :-)

IR or USB - or now that they have the TCP remote stuff how about
something in TiVoDesktop to send keystrokes to the unit? Or, again,
publish the API and someone will figure it out. We know there is a
'KEYBOARD' key word in the TC Premote API, but last I checked no one
has figured out how that works.

5) At end of program it switches to the "delete recording" screen;
navigation should still work here to allow rewinding or skip back.
A few times I've been trying to check something in end credits and
got _really_ annoyed when the program ends, and I've got to restart
then skip to end and...

Eh, I think this is a bit of a corner case. ;-)

-MZ
--
megazone-at-megazone.org http://www.MegaZone.org/ Gweep, Geek, Human, me.
http://www.GizmoLovers.com/ http://www.Eyrie-Productions.com/ -- Hail Eris
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-852-2171

MegaZone wrote:
scheduling system is the best I've seen on a DVR - and I've seen
DirecTV (non-TiVo, DISH Network, ReplayTV, Digeo Moxi, Pioneer
Passport, Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, and others. Search for a

You didn't list UltimateTV there; that was better, IMHO, for creating the
recording :-)

I haven't been in this thread, yet, but here are some things TiVo could
do better, off the top of my head.

1) Highlight conflict resolution better, especially if a conflicting show
can't be rescheduled, in the ToDo list

2) "View Upcoming" should be limitted to the channel the Season
Pass is created for. If I've created a Season Pass for "House" on Fox
then I don't want the screen filled with the repeat showings from
previous seasons on other channels (they're _not_ upcoming for this
season pass!). If the functionality needs to be kept then make two
options ("View upcoming" and "View upcoming on all channels")

3) Mark "to be recorded" in the guide view (a little red dot would be
nice; a broken red dot to show conflict... see 1)

4) Optional external infra-red qwerty keyboard, to make typing easier :-)

5) At end of program it switches to the "delete recording" screen;
navigation should still work here to allow rewinding or skip back.
A few times I've been trying to check something in end credits and
got _really_ annoyed when the program ends, and I've got to restart
then skip to end and...

anyway. What I could see as more useful is the ability to actually
set a 'bookmark' at some point, so if you find something you want to
show a friend later you can jump to it.

That'd be nice :-)

--
Stephen Harris

The truth is the truth, and opinion just opinion. But what is what?
My employer pays to ignore my opinions; you get to do it for free.

1) Highlight conflict resolution better, especially if a conflicting show
can't be rescheduled, in the ToDo list

There are limits to what I think you can readily do on the TV scree
nand with a remote, but I've suggested that they do this kind of thing
via their website.

One thing they could do easily that is not a complete fix for this:
On the "Recording History" page, they list shows with "Deleted",
"Not Recorded", or "Won't Record" (if you SELECT it, you get a more
detailed explanation of why). This is a good place to look for
conflicts. However, the "Won't Record" is cluttered up with notices
about duplicate episodes (most of the time, I'm not interested in
watching the same episode twice, and I'm probably not alone in
this). I'd like that page to say something different like "Duplicate
Episode", or even "Won't record" (note lower-case 'r') so they can
be distinguished (although this is way too obscure).

2) "View Upcoming" should be limitted to the channel the Season
Pass is created for. If I've created a Season Pass for "House" on Fox
then I don't want the screen filled with the repeat showings from
previous seasons on other channels (they're _not_ upcoming for this
season pass!). If the functionality needs to be kept then make two
options ("View upcoming" and "View upcoming on all channels")

I'm of mixed opinion here. Sometimes "View Upcoming" has alerted me
to the fact that the show has changed channels. (There are a number
of pairs of stations under common management so this isn't as uncommon
as you might think.) Also, it might alert me to the fact that the
program is available on a channel with less crappy reception.

If they do this I think it needs to be a toggle, I use it as it is
now. For example, if a conflict means I can't record a show on NBC a
lot of their big shows re-air on USA within a week so I use that to go
in and schedule the other recording. Similar things happen with
Discovery and Science, etc.

But it does confuse users, especially new users, so I could see making
it default only to the current channel, with a toggle to show all
channels.

3) Mark "to be recorded" in the guide view (a little red dot would be
nice; a broken red dot to show conflict... see 1)

On my Tivo-HD they use a little red dot to indicate that it *IS* being
recorded now. But certainly they could find some other symbol, like
a red square, or a different background color, to indicate this.
A yellow triangle containing an ! seems an obvious symbol to use for
conflicts.

Complete agreement.

MegaZone wrote:
(Stephen Harris) shaped the electrons to say:
You didn't list UltimateTV there; that was better, IMHO, for creating the
recording :-)

Man, I haven't seen an UltimateTV in years, maybe 2002?

I still have one in the basement, but one of the tuners is dead (which is
why I switched to a DirecTiVo... and now I have TiVoHD on FIOS). I wish
I could get some programs off of it; I upgraded the harddisk to 120Gb and
the old 40Gb disk has all Max Headroom episodes on it... but if I plug it
back in then the machine will reformat the disk for me. Bleh.

1) Highlight conflict resolution better, especially if a conflicting show
can't be rescheduled, in the ToDo list

There are limits to what I think you can readily do on the TV scree
nand with a remote, but I've suggested that they do this kind of thing

Oh, this one is simple; the "To Do" list can show the program that
_won't_ be recorded, with a broken symbol next to it. How you resolve
it doesn't have to change, just better notification that there _is_ an
unresolved conflict. When I hacked my DirecTiVo this was something I
used TivoWebPlus to display.

Another way to handle it would be exposing all that information via an
API on the TiVo and let 3rd parties build the tools, ala DVArchive.
TiVo could do some of it in TiVo Desktop.

2) "View Upcoming" should be limitted to the channel the Season
Pass is created for. If I've created a Season Pass for "House" on Fox
then I don't want the screen filled with the repeat showings from
previous seasons on other channels (they're _not_ upcoming for this
season pass!). If the functionality needs to be kept then make two
options ("View upcoming" and "View upcoming on all channels")

If they do this I think it needs to be a toggle, I use it as it is
now. For example, if a conflict means I can't record a show on NBC a

That's why I suggested two menu options ("View Upcoming" and ".. on all
channels").

5) At end of program it switches to the "delete recording" screen;
navigation should still work here to allow rewinding or skip back.

Eh, I think this is a bit of a corner case. ;-)

It's not something needed everyday, for sure. But it's an addition that
doesn't complicate the interface at all.

--
Stephen Harris

The truth is the truth, and opinion just opinion. But what is what?
My employer pays to ignore my opinions; you get to do it for free.

Stephen Harris wrote:

5) At end of program it switches to the "delete recording" screen;
navigation should still work here to allow rewinding or skip back.
A few times I've been trying to check something in end credits and
got _really_ annoyed when the program ends, and I've got to restart
then skip to end and...

I agree with you there. This is one feature that the DirecTV HR21 does right.
-Joe

CF wrote:

Look, I'm not saying that Tivo, per se, is awful. I am saying that
it could be much better. Do you really think that the Tivo interface is
"being all that it can be"?

Nope, not even TiVo believes that it has "UI perfection incarnate".

MZ: I really like the look of this new UI concept:
http://www.gizmolovers.com/2008/09/2...ser-interface/

Your opinions?
-Joe

On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:13:44 -0500 CF wrote:

C (MegaZone) wrote:
TiVo's policy is to not add navigation functions unless there is
sufficient demand - there just isn't enough demand to justify adding
this to the UI. TiVo uses the anonymous data from units in the field
as well as usability testing to decide what to include. There will
always be features that some group would like that just don't have
enough backing to make it in.

C This is moronic and a prime example of what a lack of competition brings
C you/us.

I'll disagree that adding more navigation functions will improve the
TiVo DVR.

I'll agree that TiVo's patents have harmed innovation in the DVR space.
By now we should have been swimming in DVRs with features TiVo lacks,
and TiVo would have been forced to keep up. Instead they've sued anyone
with decent features. Their walled garden is wilting IMHO.

For example, they still lack:

- full continuous backup of unit, including recordings, to an external
hard drive or to a network drive (like Apple's Time Machine)

- backup of season passes, preferences, ratings, etc. to a central
server and reinstatement of those items if the unit dies or you get a
new one

- USB keyboard and mouse support (*)

- playback of music and movies from a USB stick, DLNA server external
DVD-ROM (*)

- playback of music and movies from a network drive

- a semi-decent web browser (*)

- a developer ecosystem (*)

- RSS feeds of my choice

(*) these are features I use and like in my PS3 console, which I don't
really use for playing games.

Compared to all this, better navigation is a really minor issue.

Ted