Upconversion - DVD vs TV - Results

I finally got around to comparing upconversion via the TV (Sony XBR)
and DVD player (also Sony).

The setup was to view simultaneously (via P&P) the two outputs
(upconvert from DVD player via HMDI and upconversion by TV from
component input from another DVD player).

Results were there really was no discernable difference. Oh, I
thought that I saw more detail in the DVD upconverted image, but on
closer inspection, it was really too minor to be called a real
improvement. It was just an overall impression of slightly different
picture outputs, but neither one was significantly superior to the
other. Indeed, the only way I could say that there was any difference
at all was by viewing the two pictures side by side. Both were
excellent pictures. Incidentally, I used a couple of copies of Star
Wars VI - Return of the Jedi and had the two pictures synched
perfectly.

"Richard Cranium" wrote in message
.. .
I finally got around to comparing upconversion via the TV (Sony XBR)
and DVD player (also Sony).

The setup was to view simultaneously (via P&P) the two outputs
(upconvert from DVD player via HMDI and upconversion by TV from
component input from another DVD player).

Results were there really was no discernable difference. Oh, I
thought that I saw more detail in the DVD upconverted image, but on
closer inspection, it was really too minor to be called a real
improvement. It was just an overall impression of slightly different
picture outputs, but neither one was significantly superior to the
other. Indeed, the only way I could say that there was any difference
at all was by viewing the two pictures side by side. Both were
excellent pictures. Incidentally, I used a couple of copies of Star
Wars VI - Return of the Jedi and had the two pictures synched
perfectly.

Interesting. But with P&P, both images must be sized to the allocated
screen space, so do you REALLY get a valid comparison? I think the only way
this issue (?) could be resolved is through the use of two identical
systems, identically set up. Of course, few of us have the resources to
compare two identical TV's equipped with two identical DVD players ...
perhaps a magazine review could manage it?

I'm inclined to think that it matters not where the upconversion occurs,
given quality gear.

R / John

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:06:26 -0500, "John Carrier"
wrote:


"Richard Cranium" wrote in message
. ..
I finally got around to comparing upconversion via the TV (Sony XBR)
and DVD player (also Sony).

The setup was to view simultaneously (via P&P) the two outputs
(upconvert from DVD player via HMDI and upconversion by TV from
component input from another DVD player).

Results were there really was no discernable difference. Oh, I
thought that I saw more detail in the DVD upconverted image, but on
closer inspection, it was really too minor to be called a real
improvement. It was just an overall impression of slightly different
picture outputs, but neither one was significantly superior to the
other. Indeed, the only way I could say that there was any difference
at all was by viewing the two pictures side by side. Both were
excellent pictures. Incidentally, I used a couple of copies of Star
Wars VI - Return of the Jedi and had the two pictures synched
perfectly.

Interesting. But with P&P, both images must be sized to the allocated
screen space, so do you REALLY get a valid comparison? I think the only way
this issue (?) could be resolved is through the use of two identical
systems, identically set up. Of course, few of us have the resources to
compare two identical TV's equipped with two identical DVD players ...
perhaps a magazine review could manage it?

I'm inclined to think that it matters not where the upconversion occurs,
given quality gear.

R / John


I agree; both images were excellent. I sized the two images to be the
same, so the only difference I noticed was an overall slight
impression that there even was a small difference. It was due more to
a minor brightness/contrast difference that affected the overall
impression as opposed to any real picture quality difference. The XBR
showed the incoming component signal to be 1080i and the HDMI signal
to be 1080p. Both, naturally, were upconverted from the DVD which I
assume is 480p.

Richard Cranium wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:06:26 -0500, "John Carrier"
wrote:

"Richard Cranium" wrote in message
.. .
I finally got around to comparing upconversion via the TV (Sony XBR)
and DVD player (also Sony).

The setup was to view simultaneously (via P&P) the two outputs
(upconvert from DVD player via HMDI and upconversion by TV from
component input from another DVD player).

Results were there really was no discernable difference. Oh, I
thought that I saw more detail in the DVD upconverted image, but on
closer inspection, it was really too minor to be called a real
improvement. It was just an overall impression of slightly different
picture outputs, but neither one was significantly superior to the
other. Indeed, the only way I could say that there was any difference
at all was by viewing the two pictures side by side. Both were
excellent pictures. Incidentally, I used a couple of copies of Star
Wars VI - Return of the Jedi and had the two pictures synched
perfectly.
Interesting. But with P&P, both images must be sized to the allocated
screen space, so do you REALLY get a valid comparison? I think the only way
this issue (?) could be resolved is through the use of two identical
systems, identically set up. Of course, few of us have the resources to
compare two identical TV's equipped with two identical DVD players ...
perhaps a magazine review could manage it?

I'm inclined to think that it matters not where the upconversion occurs,
given quality gear.

R / John


I agree; both images were excellent. I sized the two images to be the
same, so the only difference I noticed was an overall slight
impression that there even was a small difference. It was due more to
a minor brightness/contrast difference that affected the overall
impression as opposed to any real picture quality difference. The XBR
showed the incoming component signal to be 1080i and the HDMI signal
to be 1080p. Both, naturally, were upconverted from the DVD which I
assume is 480p.


The Sony XBR is showing you the input signal format, and is displaying
the images in it's native format, presumably 1080p. Like you, I've
tried my best to do side-by-side comparisons for upconversion (with
PnP), and the best I've done is switch between two separate inputs of
the XBR, each at full screen glory. I'm using the Sony Bravia XBR 52"
and a Sony BD-500 Bluray player - the difference between the two were
inconsequential and impressive. Considering my existing DVD library, I
wanted something that would deal with upconversions well, and I'm very
pleased with the results.

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

"Jer" wrote in message
ica...
Richard Cranium wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:06:26 -0500, "John Carrier"
wrote:

"Richard Cranium" wrote in message
.. .
I finally got around to comparing upconversion via the TV (Sony XBR)
and DVD player (also Sony).

The setup was to view simultaneously (via P&P) the two outputs
(upconvert from DVD player via HMDI and upconversion by TV from
component input from another DVD player).

Results were there really was no discernable difference. Oh, I
thought that I saw more detail in the DVD upconverted image, but on
closer inspection, it was really too minor to be called a real
improvement. It was just an overall impression of slightly different
picture outputs, but neither one was significantly superior to the
other. Indeed, the only way I could say that there was any difference
at all was by viewing the two pictures side by side. Both were
excellent pictures. Incidentally, I used a couple of copies of Star
Wars VI - Return of the Jedi and had the two pictures synched
perfectly.
Interesting. But with P&P, both images must be sized to the allocated
screen space, so do you REALLY get a valid comparison? I think the only
way this issue (?) could be resolved is through the use of two identical
systems, identically set up. Of course, few of us have the resources to
compare two identical TV's equipped with two identical DVD players ...
perhaps a magazine review could manage it?

I'm inclined to think that it matters not where the upconversion occurs,
given quality gear.

R / John

I agree; both images were excellent. I sized the two images to be the
same, so the only difference I noticed was an overall slight
impression that there even was a small difference. It was due more to
a minor brightness/contrast difference that affected the overall
impression as opposed to any real picture quality difference. The XBR
showed the incoming component signal to be 1080i and the HDMI signal
to be 1080p. Both, naturally, were upconverted from the DVD which I
assume is 480p.


The Sony XBR is showing you the input signal format, and is displaying the
images in it's native format, presumably 1080p. Like you, I've tried my
best to do side-by-side comparisons for upconversion (with PnP), and the
best I've done is switch between two separate inputs of the XBR, each at
full screen glory. I'm using the Sony Bravia XBR 52" and a Sony BD-500
Bluray player - the difference between the two were inconsequential and
impressive. Considering my existing DVD library, I wanted something that
would deal with upconversions well, and I'm very pleased with the results.

Personally I think Up converting DVD players are a scam! You can't add to
the picture what's not their to begin with. I think the whole reason for Up
converting players was to get people to buy a NEW DVD player to replace the
one they have that currently works just fine. To sell something to people
buying HDTV's and want to watch their DVD's on it, and a supposedly Up
converting DVD player would be the thing to buy. It's cheaper, they were
out before HD DVD or Blu-Ray, they play movies you already own and again
DVD's are cheaper. If your a DVD Manufacture, and want to sell a bunch of
DVD players to a over saturated marketplace where DVD players are hell a
cheap, what do you do? Personally I think it's Marketing B.S. Your HDTV
is already Up converting that DVD to be displayed at it's Native Resolution
anyway. It's a mute point. If it was as simple as Up converting to get a
HD picture, their would be no need for HD DVD or Blu-Ray!

JBDragon wrote:

"Jer" wrote in message
ica...
Richard Cranium wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:06:26 -0500, "John Carrier"
wrote:

"Richard Cranium" wrote in message
.. .
I finally got around to comparing upconversion via the TV (Sony XBR)
and DVD player (also Sony).

The setup was to view simultaneously (via P&P) the two outputs
(upconvert from DVD player via HMDI and upconversion by TV from
component input from another DVD player).

Results were there really was no discernable difference. Oh, I
thought that I saw more detail in the DVD upconverted image, but on
closer inspection, it was really too minor to be called a real
improvement. It was just an overall impression of slightly different
picture outputs, but neither one was significantly superior to the
other. Indeed, the only way I could say that there was any difference
at all was by viewing the two pictures side by side. Both were
excellent pictures. Incidentally, I used a couple of copies of Star
Wars VI - Return of the Jedi and had the two pictures synched
perfectly.
Interesting. But with P&P, both images must be sized to the
allocated screen space, so do you REALLY get a valid comparison? I
think the only way this issue (?) could be resolved is through the
use of two identical systems, identically set up. Of course, few of
us have the resources to compare two identical TV's equipped with
two identical DVD players ... perhaps a magazine review could manage
it?

I'm inclined to think that it matters not where the upconversion
occurs, given quality gear.

R / John

I agree; both images were excellent. I sized the two images to be the
same, so the only difference I noticed was an overall slight
impression that there even was a small difference. It was due more to
a minor brightness/contrast difference that affected the overall
impression as opposed to any real picture quality difference. The XBR
showed the incoming component signal to be 1080i and the HDMI signal
to be 1080p. Both, naturally, were upconverted from the DVD which I
assume is 480p.


The Sony XBR is showing you the input signal format, and is displaying
the images in it's native format, presumably 1080p. Like you, I've
tried my best to do side-by-side comparisons for upconversion (with
PnP), and the best I've done is switch between two separate inputs of
the XBR, each at full screen glory. I'm using the Sony Bravia XBR 52"
and a Sony BD-500 Bluray player - the difference between the two were
inconsequential and impressive. Considering my existing DVD library,
I wanted something that would deal with upconversions well, and I'm
very pleased with the results.

Personally I think Up converting DVD players are a scam! You can't add
to the picture what's not their to begin with. I think the whole reason
for Up converting players was to get people to buy a NEW DVD player to
replace the one they have that currently works just fine. To sell
something to people buying HDTV's and want to watch their DVD's on it,
and a supposedly Up converting DVD player would be the thing to buy.
It's cheaper, they were out before HD DVD or Blu-Ray, they play movies
you already own and again DVD's are cheaper. If your a DVD Manufacture,
and want to sell a bunch of DVD players to a over saturated marketplace
where DVD players are hell a cheap, what do you do? Personally I think
it's Marketing B.S. Your HDTV is already Up converting that DVD to be
displayed at it's Native Resolution anyway. It's a mute point. If it
was as simple as Up converting to get a HD picture, their would be no
need for HD DVD or Blu-Ray!





I apologize if I've confused anyone - I didn't mean to infer that an
upconverted playback system was the same as a HD playback system - it's
not, IMO.

That said, my first acquisition was a Sony Bravia XBR LCD TV for the
bedroom, which upconverts 800+ DVD's in my library (via an old JVC
player) and provides for HD OTA viewing. Subsequently, I acquired
another Bravia XBR TV and a Sony BDP-S500 player (package deal) which
offers Bluray and upconverted playback of the same 800+ DVD library.

Money shot: I didn't buy the player for upconverting DVD's - I was
already doing that with the JVC player - I got it for Blu-ray DVD's. I
really didn't care that it upconverts, but it does as well as the TV
does. I don't feel scammed, I feel pleased, especially since I upgraded
the BD player to a 1.1 profile for some of the newer BD disks.


--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

Personally I think Up converting DVD players are a scam! You can't add
to the picture what's not their to begin with. I think the whole reason
for Up converting players was to get people to buy a NEW DVD player to
replace the one they have that currently works just fine. To sell
something to people buying HDTV's and want to watch their DVD's on it,
and a supposedly Up converting DVD player would be the thing to buy.
It's cheaper, they were out before HD DVD or Blu-Ray, they play movies
you already own and again DVD's are cheaper. If your a DVD Manufacture,
and want to sell a bunch of DVD players to a over saturated marketplace
where DVD players are hell a cheap, what do you do? Personally I think
it's Marketing B.S. Your HDTV is already Up converting that DVD to be
displayed at it's Native Resolution anyway. It's a mute point. If it
was as simple as Up converting to get a HD picture, their would be no
need for HD DVD or Blu-Ray!



I like the way the upconvert player does xvid. Burning a dvd with 5
movies with no effort on my behalf seems to be an excellent reason to
purchase.
Tee Jay

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:21:52 -0700, "JBDragon" JBDragon at someplace
dot com wrote:


"Jer" wrote in message
ica...
Richard Cranium wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:06:26 -0500, "John Carrier"
wrote:

"Richard Cranium" wrote in message
.. .
I finally got around to comparing upconversion via the TV (Sony XBR)
and DVD player (also Sony).

The setup was to view simultaneously (via P&P) the two outputs
(upconvert from DVD player via HMDI and upconversion by TV from
component input from another DVD player).

Results were there really was no discernable difference. Oh, I
thought that I saw more detail in the DVD upconverted image, but on
closer inspection, it was really too minor to be called a real
improvement. It was just an overall impression of slightly different
picture outputs, but neither one was significantly superior to the
other. Indeed, the only way I could say that there was any difference
at all was by viewing the two pictures side by side. Both were
excellent pictures. Incidentally, I used a couple of copies of Star
Wars VI - Return of the Jedi and had the two pictures synched
perfectly.
Interesting. But with P&P, both images must be sized to the allocated
screen space, so do you REALLY get a valid comparison? I think the only
way this issue (?) could be resolved is through the use of two identical
systems, identically set up. Of course, few of us have the resources to
compare two identical TV's equipped with two identical DVD players ...
perhaps a magazine review could manage it?

I'm inclined to think that it matters not where the upconversion occurs,
given quality gear.

R / John

I agree; both images were excellent. I sized the two images to be the
same, so the only difference I noticed was an overall slight
impression that there even was a small difference. It was due more to
a minor brightness/contrast difference that affected the overall
impression as opposed to any real picture quality difference. The XBR
showed the incoming component signal to be 1080i and the HDMI signal
to be 1080p. Both, naturally, were upconverted from the DVD which I
assume is 480p.


The Sony XBR is showing you the input signal format, and is displaying the
images in it's native format, presumably 1080p. Like you, I've tried my
best to do side-by-side comparisons for upconversion (with PnP), and the
best I've done is switch between two separate inputs of the XBR, each at
full screen glory. I'm using the Sony Bravia XBR 52" and a Sony BD-500
Bluray player - the difference between the two were inconsequential and
impressive. Considering my existing DVD library, I wanted something that
would deal with upconversions well, and I'm very pleased with the results.

Personally I think Up converting DVD players are a scam! You can't add to
the picture what's not their to begin with. I think the whole reason for Up
converting players was to get people to buy a NEW DVD player to replace the
one they have that currently works just fine. To sell something to people
buying HDTV's and want to watch their DVD's on it, and a supposedly Up
converting DVD player would be the thing to buy. It's cheaper, they were
out before HD DVD or Blu-Ray, they play movies you already own and again
DVD's are cheaper. If your a DVD Manufacture, and want to sell a bunch of
DVD players to a over saturated marketplace where DVD players are hell a
cheap, what do you do? Personally I think it's Marketing B.S. Your HDTV
is already Up converting that DVD to be displayed at it's Native Resolution
anyway. It's a mute point. If it was as simple as Up converting to get a
HD picture, their would be no need for HD DVD or Blu-Ray!



Are there not more than one way to upconvert a signal from the DVD
standard of 480p? Perhaps there is a difference among the various
methods/algorithms used?

I was changing from a 5-disc DVD changer to a single disc player and
the upconversion capability was just an advertised feature - not the
re4ason for my purchase. Maybe one reason I do not see any difference
is the fact that both methods I am comparing are Sony sourced. If my
HDMI connection was via an Oppo player, their technology may have made
a difference? I'm just guessing, of course. The bottom line for me
is that I am happy with the result and can apply it to a library of
movies.

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:06:26 -0500 John Carrier wrote:

| I'm inclined to think that it matters not where the upconversion occurs,
| given quality gear.

I'm inclined to think there is an opportunity to produce a better picture by
upconversion done in the DVD decoder by skipping the 480 line intermediate
mode altogether. However, I'm also include to think the DVD player makers
aren't really doing would could be done.

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
| Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:21:52 -0700 JBDragon JBDragon at someplace dot com wrote:

| Personally I think Up converting DVD players are a scam! You can't add to
| the picture what's not their to begin with. I think the whole reason for Up
| converting players was to get people to buy a NEW DVD player to replace the
| one they have that currently works just fine. To sell something to people
| buying HDTV's and want to watch their DVD's on it, and a supposedly Up
| converting DVD player would be the thing to buy. It's cheaper, they were
| out before HD DVD or Blu-Ray, they play movies you already own and again
| DVD's are cheaper. If your a DVD Manufacture, and want to sell a bunch of
| DVD players to a over saturated marketplace where DVD players are hell a
| cheap, what do you do? Personally I think it's Marketing B.S. Your HDTV
| is already Up converting that DVD to be displayed at it's Native Resolution
| anyway. It's a mute point. If it was as simple as Up converting to get a
| HD picture, their would be no need for HD DVD or Blu-Ray!

There is something there in the DVD that you can't get with a 480i output.
The DVD may be recorded as 480p24 or 480p30. Converting that first to 480i
and then up to the display size can introduce artifacts. Converting it
directly to the display native format would minimize the artifacts. If the
DVD player has an HDMI output that can feed the TV with the exact format the
DVD is recorded in, that could still be improved upon by the way the DVD
player can do its upconversion. A TV can only upconvert from the video it
gets. But the DVD player can upconvert directly during the decoding of the
MPEG blocks. For example, consider a program recorded in 640x480 (usually
it is 704x480, which would complicate the example but not void the advantage).
The compressed data would have blocks that cover an 8x8 square part of the
picture. If those blocks are decoded directly into an 18x18 pixel square,
you get a 1440x1080 picture. The advantage of the direct decoding is the
various frequency components of the DCT encoding will produce a smoother
result. It would be more complicated to do this with 704x480 data which is
not in a square aspect, but it is doable, and would have a direct widescreen
output without any intermediate letterboxing or whatever.

It won't really be a dramatic improvement unless you can see artifacts in
the playback that gets upconverted by the TV. If those artifacts are from
that upconversion from one video format to another, or are from decoding
into the lower resoltion video, then they will be reduced or eliminated in
"direct to HD decoding of an SD picture".

Whether or not any "upconverting DVD player" does this "direct to HD decoding
of an SD picture" ... I have no idea. I'm just saying the possibility to do
this exists.

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
| Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |