HDTV phantom power drain

In article G-squared writes:
On May 7, 8:37=A0am, Steve Urbach
wrote:
That is 24 watt hours EACH or a roughly a KWH every 40 days. NB
Really cheap
ones (containing cheap Iron transformers) idle at 3 to 5 Watts.

I have my doubts about 3-5 watts. That 'much' power in a small box
such as the wall wart would get pretty hot. Check the heat from a 4
watt night light.

Indeed. If they consume that power, they would be giving off heat.

I suspect many of the folks who make these claims do not understand
power factor, and think that VA is the same as Watts (which is not true).

Alan

On Sat, 10 May 2008 06:47:14 +0000 (UTC), (Alan)
wrote:

In article G-squared writes:
On May 7, 8:37=A0am, Steve Urbach
wrote:
That is 24 watt hours EACH or a roughly a KWH every 40 days. NB
Really cheap
ones (containing cheap Iron transformers) idle at 3 to 5 Watts.

I have my doubts about 3-5 watts. That 'much' power in a small box
such as the wall wart would get pretty hot. Check the heat from a 4
watt night light.

Indeed. If they consume that power, they would be giving off heat.

And you just *might* have a problem holding them firmly in your hand: Yow!
I did say "cheap" ones. BTW if you have a scope, the DC output waveform is
/interesting/ (yes, waveform: as in really odd ripple with little load)
Go put you hand on your furnace 24VAC transformer (might be inside a panel),
Warm to Hot even when *NO* heat or A/C has been used in recent time.
Doorbell xfmr HOT
Note these transformers do not usually have plastic insulating covers and are
in relatively free air.




I suspect many of the folks who make these claims do not understand
power factor, and think that VA is the same as Watts (which is not true).

Alan

Specs on my Sony CRT (30XS955) say .5w on standby

--
Regards,
Richard Harison

wrote in message
...
| On Wed, 07 May 2008 08:10:39 -0400 Agent_C
wrote:
|| On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:32:08 -0600, root wrote:
||
||I shut the HDTV off (Philips 42PFL7422D/37) first with the remote, then
with a power strip to eliminate power usage when I'm not using it. Any
drawbacks to this, other than a slower turn on time? I am concerned about
the electronics blowing out because there seems to be some sort of trauma to
the thing when the plug is pulled.
||
|| I'm a firm believer in using electronics the way they were engineered.
|| In the case of most all flat panel TV's, that means leaving them
|| plugged in and using the power button on the unit, or the remote
|| control to turn them on.
|
| I'm a firm believer in not using electronics the way they were
mis-engineered.
| I'm also a firm believer in using energy efficiently, and not using when
it is
| not needed.
|
|
|| In the case of my Sony, it avoids having to go through a PITA
|| initialization routine every time its cold started.
|
| In the case of Sony, it is clearly very poorly engineered, especially at
the
| software level, if it can't complete its bootup and initialization withn
in
| second or two. It doesn't need to be starting up a web database.
|
|
|| I think FAR too much is made of this tiny trickle of power they
|| consume while not in use, and it's often grossly overstated. For
|| example, I read in a brochure from Con Edison, that some appliances
|| use 'as mush as 25%' of their power while not in use; that's just
|| patently false and misleading.
|
| A few actually do use as much as 25%. Most use about 5% to 10%.
|
| A friend of mine with a large CRT-type TV found that his TV was using 65
watts
| of power when off, and about 350 watts when on.
|
| Would you leave a 60-watt lightbulb on that was not lightning up anything
that
| is used most of the time, just so you'd have the light just a bit quicker
than
| if you had to turn it on by hand, a few times a day you go into that room?
|
| --
||WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating
from |
|| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more
readers |
|| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet.
|
|| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at
ipal.net) |




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On Sun, 11 May 2008 19:16:16 -0400 Richard Harison wrote:

| Specs on my Sony CRT (30XS955) say .5w on standby

Doveryai, no Proveryai!

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
| Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |

I'm a firm believer in not using electronics the way they were mis-engineered.
I'm also a firm believer in using energy efficiently, and not using when it is
not needed.


| In the case of my Sony, it avoids having to go through a PITA
| initialization routine every time its cold started.

In the case of Sony, it is clearly very poorly engineered, especially at the
software level, if it can't complete its bootup and initialization withn in
second or two. It doesn't need to be starting up a web database.


| I think FAR too much is made of this tiny trickle of power they
| consume while not in use, and it's often grossly overstated. For
| example, I read in a brochure from Con Edison, that some appliances
| use 'as mush as 25%' of their power while not in use; that's just
| patently false and misleading.

A few actually do use as much as 25%. Most use about 5% to 10%.

A friend of mine with a large CRT-type TV found that his TV was using 65 watts
of power when off, and about 350 watts when on.

Would you leave a 60-watt lightbulb on that was not lightning up anything that
is used most of the time, just so you'd have the light just a bit quicker than
if you had to turn it on by hand, a few times a day you go into that room?


Add up all the draws in a home theater set up with subwoofer, pre-amp, power amp, hdtv, and it will be (at minimum) like running another refrigerator in your home. The arrogance of the equipment designers has to end. Everything should be designed to power off fully, or to handle power-off conditions via a power strip without any problems. All settings for every unit should be fully persistent between power cycles.

root wrote:

Add up all the draws in a home theater set up with subwoofer, pre-amp,
power amp, hdtv, and it will be (at minimum) like running another
refrigerator in your home. The arrogance of the equipment designers has
to end. Everything should be designed to power off fully, or to handle
power-off conditions via a power strip without any problems. All settings
for every unit should be fully persistent between power cycles.

You are correct that modern electronics use a lot
of electricity in the standby mode. However, if
they were designed to turn off fully as you think
they should, computers would take many more minutes
to boot up, dvrs would have to go through a complete
reset, and televisions would have to rescan for
channels. You don't think that is a good idea, do you?

Chip

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"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:

Bull**** snipped:

Well Elmo, I see you are still a little asshole, aren't you?

Chip

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"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

You are correct that modern electronics use a lot
of electricity in the standby mode. However, if
they were designed to turn off fully as you think
they should, computers would take many more minutes
to boot up, dvrs would have to go through a complete
reset, and televisions would have to rescan for
channels. You don't think that is a good idea, do you?

What the **** are you talking about?

Why would TVs "have to" rescan for channels? Didn't you read what he
wrote, for God's sake? He said:

Everything should be designed to power off fully, or to handle power-off
conditions via a power strip without any problems. All settings for every
unit should be fully persistent between power cycles.

What part of "Everything should be designed to power off fully, or to
handle power-off conditions via a power strip without any problems. All
settings for every unit should be fully persistent between power cycles"
didn't you understand?

There's zero need for TVs to rescan for channels. Or maybe you haven't
seen these thingies out there, these magical "thumb drives", that keep
information stored WITHOUT ANY POWER BEING APPLIED TO THEM! No, it's
not witchcraft. No need to drown anyone here.

I don't see why this isn't done either. It's not like it would take a HDTV
minutes to boot up at a complete power down anyway, it takes seconds.
Having the Info you already programed your HDTV in should still be there.
I'm not a big fan on these so called Stand-By modes. Most of the time they
just arn't needed. They are needed more so on a DVR though. They need to
be on to keep track and record shows as needed, turning off wouldn't be
pratical I think.

As for computers booting up, here's a thought for you: the Toyota
Prius, one of the most technologically advanced cars in the world, a car
that is controlled by more computer power than is in most small offices,
comes to Ready within a second of being turned on. It can't run without
ALL of its computers being ready to go, and they're ready to go
effectively instantly, on demand.

The Computers in the Prius just like EVERY modern car out there as they ALL
run on computers, are to a specific task. There's no Windows to load, let
alone from a HDD. It's on in Memory and only doing one thing, and that's to
run the Car. That's a whole lot differnt then a desk top computer. You
don't turn on a calculator and wait for it to boot up. It does boot up, but
it's quick. Even cars though, if you disconnect the battery for to long, the
settings in the computer will disapear that the computer has learned to make
your engine run smoothly, Idle corretly, etc. That you now have to drive
around 40 miles or so to re-Learn once again depending on the car. Not to
mention loosing Radio and clock settings!

Of course, that's the expectation of someone driving a car; they HAD to
make it that way, because there's NO WAY a modern driver would wait
"minutes" for his car to boot up, no matter how "cool" the car is or how
much of a "green" statement it makes.


That consumer electronics manufacturers don't do these kinds of things
is inexcusable. That consumers BUY crap like this is also inexcusable.

Yep, My new Plasma won't remember if it's unpluged. There's not much
choice in the matter.

JBDragon wrote:

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

You are correct that modern electronics use a lot
of electricity in the standby mode. However, if
they were designed to turn off fully as you think
they should, computers would take many more minutes
to boot up, dvrs would have to go through a complete
reset, and televisions would have to rescan for
channels. You don't think that is a good idea, do you?

What the **** are you talking about?

Why would TVs "have to" rescan for channels? Didn't you read what he
wrote, for God's sake? He said:

Everything should be designed to power off fully, or to handle power-off
conditions via a power strip without any problems. All settings for
every
unit should be fully persistent between power cycles.

What part of "Everything should be designed to power off fully, or to
handle power-off conditions via a power strip without any problems. All
settings for every unit should be fully persistent between power cycles"
didn't you understand?

There's zero need for TVs to rescan for channels. Or maybe you haven't
seen these thingies out there, these magical "thumb drives", that keep
information stored WITHOUT ANY POWER BEING APPLIED TO THEM! No, it's
not witchcraft. No need to drown anyone here.

I don't see why this isn't done either. It's not like it would take a
HDTV minutes to boot up at a complete power down anyway, it takes
seconds. Having the Info you already programed your HDTV in should still
be there. I'm not a big fan on these so called Stand-By modes. Most of
the time they just arn't needed. They are needed more so on a DVR
though. They need to be on to keep track and record shows as needed,
turning off wouldn't be pratical I think.

As for computers booting up, here's a thought for you: the Toyota
Prius, one of the most technologically advanced cars in the world, a car
that is controlled by more computer power than is in most small offices,
comes to Ready within a second of being turned on. It can't run without
ALL of its computers being ready to go, and they're ready to go
effectively instantly, on demand.

The Computers in the Prius just like EVERY modern car out there as they
ALL run on computers, are to a specific task. There's no Windows to
load, let alone from a HDD. It's on in Memory and only doing one thing,
and that's to run the Car. That's a whole lot differnt then a desk top
computer. You don't turn on a calculator and wait for it to boot up.
It does boot up, but it's quick. Even cars though, if you disconnect the
battery for to long, the settings in the computer will disapear that the
computer has learned to make your engine run smoothly, Idle corretly,
etc. That you now have to drive around 40 miles or so to re-Learn once
again depending on the car. Not to mention loosing Radio and clock
settings!

Of course, that's the expectation of someone driving a car; they HAD to
make it that way, because there's NO WAY a modern driver would wait
"minutes" for his car to boot up, no matter how "cool" the car is or how
much of a "green" statement it makes.


That consumer electronics manufacturers don't do these kinds of things
is inexcusable. That consumers BUY crap like this is also inexcusable.

Yep, My new Plasma won't remember if it's unpluged. There's not much
choice in the matter.

I think a lot of folks want to turn on their tv with the remote..so
something has to be live in the tv for that to happen. I personally
wouldn't mind powering it up manually, but I don't know about others..
Eric

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
In article ,
Eric wrote:

I think a lot of folks want to turn on their tv with the remote..so
something has to be live in the tv for that to happen.

60 watts worth?

I don't think so.

But they're too lazy/cheap to build the TVs with any sort of persistent
memory for channel and other settings, so a modern TV is just a sleeping
computer.

A hog of a computer at that. They don't even make ANY effort at low
power in those things.

Yeah I think a few watts would be plenty. Hard to figure, but they are
not paying your electric bill..
Eric