Surge / Ground / Lightning

w_tom wrote:

On May 4, 9:14 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Bull****. Transmitters get knocked off the air, and the anteanna
grounding systems are damaged from repeated strikes. Onece again, you
are blowing smoke.

People who are more than TV repairmen learn from their mistakes and
correct reasons for that failure. TV repairmen only fix defects -
never bother to learn how those failures can be avoided. Let's have
some fun. Let's reply using the same mockery and insult that Michael
uses. Except this post will be accurate about Michaels intelligence.


If that is true, you will never learn anything. _wacko_tom. BTW, if
you are going to damn others, al least proofread your message before you
hit send. I'm sorry that yo never made it past TV repairman, but I left
that field in the early '70s. That was over 35 years ago, on the day I
was drafted. You are still stuck in the past, quoting things from
organizations that either no longer exist, or have updated their
information. Tell us _wacko_tom, how much of your work is in orbit? Or
used by NASA, NOAA, or the ESA? Tell everyone what you do for a living,
then bore us to death with more of your inane BS, like your claim that
all computers MUST work down to 90 volts because the now deceased CBEMA
said so. Or the fact that you refuse to admit that new version of
standards supersede older ones.

Now, lets examine your intelligence. ... ... ... 0.000. Well, that
didn't take very long.


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w_tom wrote:

Rush Limbaugh would be proud.


Only of your unending ignorance. That is, if he wasn't afraid that
you were trying to take his job as a fat, drug addicted idiot with a
talk show.


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In alt.tv.tech.hdtv bud-- wrote:
| wrote:
| In alt.tv.tech.hdtv bud-- wrote:
| | wrote:
| | In alt.tv.tech.hdtv bud-- wrote:
|
| | | You suggest experts in the field "missed a lot of reality" and "flubbed
| | | the experiment".
| |
| | I propose that as one explanation as to why these guides come up short on
| | the explanations.
| |
| | Translation - they don't say what you believe. They "missed a lot of
| | reality" was in response to one of your beliefs that is not found in any
| | of the rather extensive reading I have done. And another of your beliefs
| | for which you have no supporting cite.
|
| You are likely to never see any citation that attests to what I believe.
|
| Because some of what you believe has nothing to do with the real world.

Which somes are that?


| | And you are again discounting a guide written by experts, peer reviewed
| | by experts, published by the IEEE, and aimed at technical people. You
| | apparently think electrical engineers are idiots. Where you disagree
| | with the guide you have not cited a source that supports your belief.
|
| I've _met_ electrical engineers that are idiots. I've met people in a
| lot of other fields that are idiots.
|
| I don't know if the authors of what you have read are idiots. Maybe they
| are just not writing as broadly as you think they are.
|
| Of course they are idiots. They are all members of the IEEE. Only idiots
| can join. And only the biggest idiots can write publications for the IEEE.

Your words, not mine.


| Martzloff is not only an IEEE idiot. He worked for the NIST - another
| well known lair of idiots.

Your words, not mine.


| Thank goodness you aren?t a member.

Yeah, right.


| | For example, consider the high frequency issue. High frequency energy is
| | less common than low frequency energy. Partly this is because the chance
| | of a closer lightning strike is less than a more distant one. A strike
| | within 100 meters is only 1/8 as like as a strike outside of 100 meters
| | but within 300 meters. Some people then feel that they can dismiss high
| | frequency energy issues entirely.
| |
| | Francois Martzloff was the surge guru at the NIST and has many published
| | papers on surges and suppression. In one of them he wrote:
| | "From this first test, we can draw the conclusion (predictable, but too
| | often not recognized in qualitative discussions of reflections in wiring
| | systems) that it is not appropriate to apply classical transmission line
| | concepts to wiring systems if the front of the wave is not shorter than
| | the travel time of the impulse. For a 1.2/50 us impulse, this means that
| | the line must be at least 200 m long before one can think in terms of
| | classical transmission line behavior."
| | Residential branch circuits aren't 200m.
| |
| | Your response: "Then he flubbed the experiment." In another case you
| | have said Martzloff had a hidden agenda.
|
| I addressed this one elsewhere. You seem to have misunderstood him.
| He did not say that wiring systems do not exhibit transmission line
| characteristics.
|
| If you had actually read the quote:
| "*it is not appropriate to apply classical transmission line concepts to
| wiring systems*"
| and "*this means that the line must be at least 200 m long before one
| can think in terms of classical transmission line behavior*."
|
| Repeating: "Residential branch circuits aren't 200m."

You are now taking what Martzloff said out of context. He _qualified_
what he said in terms of a statement conditional. Following the part
you just now quoted is "... if the front of the wave is not shorter than
the travel time of the impulse." Then he added "For a 1.2/50 us impulse,
this means that the line must be at least 200 m long before one can think
in terms of classical transmission line behavior."

Hint: what "if" means is that if the conditional is not met, then the
statement does not apply.

Martzloff's statement is actually correct. Your quoting of it is wrong.
I suspect your understanding of it is weak or maybe even wrong. I believe
you are misapplying it. Then when _my_ statement contradicts _your_
incorrect understanding, you somehow think *I* am contradicting him.

His statement is qualified for a specific slow impulse rise time that
corresponds to a lower frequency. He has NOT said (in what you quoted
in earlier posts here) that no surge can ever have a faster rise time.
He has NOT said that you cannot think in terms of transmission line
behaviour for faster rise times, even on shorter wiring/circuits.

I recall there being something he said that I would contradict, but THIS
statement is NOT it.


| Rather, he points out that one does not need to look
| at the transmission line characteristics in certain cases.
|
| Like branch circuits under 200 meters long.

See description of your error above.


| | You claim lightning induced surges have rise times about a thousand
| | times faster than accepted IEEE standards - which are experimentally
| | derived.
|
| So you are narrowing this statement to only induced surges?
|
| I intended "induced" meaning produced by including the most damaging -
| strikes to utility lines.

The most damaging strikes tend to be ones that are NOT induced. Do you
understand what induction and inductive coupling is?

Lightning does not have to directly strike the wire for there to be a
surge on it. That is induction when there is no direct strike. If the
strike _is_ directly on the wires, that's different (and has the exposure
of substantially more voltage/current).


| I didn't see where you quoted anything by IEEE or its experts that specify
| actual rise times of any kind of surge, induced or otherwise.
|
| From the Martzloff quote you didn't read:
| "For a 1.2/50 us impulse". That is 1.2 microseconds rise time.

Oh I read it. You are making presumptions because I did not conclude
the same thing you concluded.

Because he said "For a ...", he is describing an example scenario and
giving the calculated line length where transmission line effects become
significant enough to consider.


| From w_'s favorite engineer source "an 8 microsecond rise time".
|
| Don?t you read anything?

If you had simply said "Don't you read _everything_" then I would have
agreed with you. And that would be because I actually do not read a
lot of, or maybe most of, w_tom posts. I don't even see them all
because he is posting from Google Groups. So I don't know what, or
how much, I missed from him.

And I don't care.

OTOH, I have read the original quotes of Martzloff's statements that you
made, and then I read the subsequent quotes where you have trimmed them
to change the apparent context to support assertions you seem to be making
that Martzloff is not actually supporting.


| The numbers come from an IEEE standard - accepted by everyone but you.

The numbers are example cases. Read what YOU QUOTED ... CAREFULLY!


| | One of w_'s favorite professional engineer sources says an 8 microsecond
| | rise time for a lightning induced surge is a "representative pulse",
| | with most of the spectrum under 100kHz. You don?t get transmission line
| | effects at 100kHz.
|
| I agree that you don't get transmission line effects under 100 kHz for 200m
| wires ... of any significance to worry about for surge matters.
|
| OTOH, you have not shown how even if an 8 microsecond rise time is significant
| as a representative case, that it can't get shorter than that in severe cases.
| or even a higher rise voltage (which hasn't even been specified at all here).
|
| I provided 2 direct sources. They follow IEEE standards for rise time.
|
| Still never seen - a cite that supports your opinion.

Why should I even bother? The more you post, and the more you take things
out of context, and the more you misunderstand what you quote, the more I
realize there is no point in making further efforts for you.


| It is Phil?s phantasy physics.

Or Bud's fantasy prose?

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |

In alt.tv.tech.hdtv bud-- wrote:
| wrote:
| In alt.engineering.electrical Leonard Caillouet wrote:
| | wrote in message
| | ...
| | In alt.tv.tech.hdtv Franc Zabkar wrote:
| |
| |
| | The MOVs will act like conductors when they are clamping. The surge will
| | take both paths ... the path through the MOVs, and the path going past the
| | MOVs. In general, about 50% will go each way. That can vary at higher
| | frequencies.
| |
| | Why would you assume that 50% will go each way when you don't know the
| | impedance of each direction? When conducting, or at failure, the MOV has a
| | very low impedance.
|
| There is a distinction between "go each way" and "what comes back" due to
| the impedance. It will be about 50% that goes each way _because_ the power
| itself does not (yet) know the impedance (at a distance), until it gets
| there.
|
| Another installment of Phil's Phantasy Physics using transmission line
| theory.

Not understanding it is your loss.


| Two sources directly contradict Phil.

What sources? Your truncated out of context quotes?


| Phil has provided no sources to support phantasy physics.

I don't care.

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |

In alt.tv.tech.hdtv bud-- wrote:
| wrote:
|
| Bud is focusing on the low frequency energy and
| seems to think that is all there us because a lot of documents focus
| on it because more energy is in the low frequencies. Also, surges
| that come from a greater distance have the higher frequencies reduced.
|
| Bud either does not understand the high frequency energy or just does
| not believe it can happen. All lightning strikes have it.
|
| Bud has provided 2 sources that directly contradict Phil. (Of course
| they are not as smart as Phil.)

Bud has quoted people like Martzloff out of context.


| Phil has provided no sources to support Phil's Phantasy Physics.

Phil doesn't care.


| (But this is *Phil* - why should he need sources?)

Why should he care?

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |

In alt.tv.tech.hdtv bud-- wrote:
| wrote:
| In alt.engineering.electrical Timothy Daniels wrote:
|
| | As always, "w_tom" ignores that the high voltages that short out
| | "3 miles of sky" will short out the underground power lines which
| | enter my building and buildings all over America. Anything able to
| | leap "3 miles of sky" will leap the fraction of an inch between the
| | power lines and the earthed metal conduit. What is left will be a
| | much lower voltage spike that can be handled by the average
| | "plug-in protector".
|
| It does not always make the 2nd leap to ground. There is not always a metal
| conduit available. I've seen such strikes.
|
|
| With no service panel suppressor it is well accepted that at about 6kV
| there will be arc-over from bus to enclosure for (US) circuit breaker
| panels. While arcing, the voltage will be hundreds of volts. Since the
| panel/system ground is connected to the earth electrode (US) most of
| surge energy is dumped to earth.

But what is remaining, in a significant surge, is still capable of causing
damage. A surge already has some high frequency energy. That moves on past
the point of arc even before the arc happens. Once the arc is established,
it can then produce its own high frequency effects. Ignoring this leaves
you open to more damage.


| If talking about a plug-in suppressor, Experiments by Martzloff (the
| idiot/member-of-the-IEEE) show surprisingly little energy reaches the
| suppressor. Circuit impedance greatly limits the current, and thus
| energy. Surprisingly, there is more energy at the MOV for lower surge
| currents (on short branch circuits) because the MOV can hold the panel
| voltage below the 6kV breakover voltage. With up to 10kA surges, the max
| energy at the MOV was 34J with most cases below 1.2J.

I've seen surge energy reach an appliance that is significant enough to cause
complete melt through of AWG #8 copper conductors. There was no protection
installed in that particular case.

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |

w_tom wrote:

Same is described by van Deursen and van der Laan when lightning
caused damage to a nuclear hardened maritime radio station. Did they
cry, "Woe is me. Nothing can stop lightning damage"? Of course not.

Nono. They cried "w_tom is me. Stop lightning damage I can."

Nick

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
On May 4, 1:24 pm, "Tantalust" wrote:
Why do you have this pompous attitude; constantly sermonizing down to
people
as if they're your little, personal kindergarten class?

Ask polite or technical questions =snip=

"Boys and girls....claaaasss........be *polite* to our nice, kind
kindergarten teacher.....". LOLOL

"w_tom" wrote

Yes, plug-in protectors do have limited protective functions.

Look at poor w_tom starting his back-pedalling.
Back-pedalling, back-pedalling, back-pedalling.

"G-squared" wrote in message
...
On May 4, 9:24 am, "Tantalust" wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message
snip
We earth a 'whole house' protector AND connect all protectors
short
(ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground so that
protection inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. Simple
stuff
that so confused trader. trader *assumed* MOVs rather than read
what
was posted. trader again demonstrates insufficient technical
kowledge justifies his mockery and insult. Mythical MOV inside
appliances demonstrate that trader only reads what he wants to
see;
not what is posted.

MOVs inside appliances is another trader myth. Had trader read
what
was posted or learned technology, then trader would not invent
fictional MOVs inside appliances.

Why do you have this pompous attitude; constantly sermonizing down
to people
as if they're your little, personal kindergarten class?

You read sometimes like one of those old children's "Golden Books".

Hey, I LIKED reading Golden Books to my kids. They didn't like W-TOMs
posts at all.

GG

I loved Golden Books too... I'm 55 going on 90 and I still read mine
everyday! ;-)