How will the US local area stations commerate the end of System-M?

Albert Manfredi wrote:
On May 1, 4:21 pm, Jer wrote:

I can't know where DishTV gets their schedule info, but I can look two
days in advance if I want to. If I set a record event, the local system
will try to preserve it through any nightly schedule changes.

I don't think the problem is with divulging the information per se. I
think the problem is that the EPG system for over-the-air digital TV
in the US, which uses a protocol called PSIP, has had some buggie
software implementations in past receiver designs. So it's likely that
some older receivers malfunction if some of the PSIP modes are used.

In your case, sounds like you get the info via the EchoStar EPG
system, so no problem.

I know that just this sort of problem occurred a couple of years ago
with a software update NBC installed in their own stations. All of a
sudden, my receiver would freeze if I tuned into the local NBC -2
subchannel (which is a weather channel in this market). Once there, I
couldn't tune to any other channel unless I cycled power to the
receiver.

Suspecting some software bug, I called the station. The engineer told
me that this bug had hit all of the NBC-owned stations, so they had to
back out the upgrade, system wide. And that the problem only occurred
in one brand of receiver. (They did in fact fix the problem in a few
days.)

I suppose there will be such bugs from time to time. Still, the PSIP
EPG is not of much use, especially if you want to use it for PVR
programming. It's okay to look ahead at that evening's schedule,
though.

Bert


I've always presumed my DishTV box uses PSIP directly from the Echostar
constellation, but I don't know what DishTV's PSIP source is - maybe
it's their home brew. The good news is I can scan/skip ahead to a
future program, press the magic button on the clicker, and since it's in
the future, the Dish box will prompt me for a schedule - one time only,
daily, weekly, or forever at any time the same program shows up
regardless of when. I can also priority protect the event from
conflicts from other recorder events from other programs on the same or
other channels. Once I've set a recorder event, the program listings
impacted by the event are visibly marked as such - duplicate recorder
events are not my friend. I set it and forget it.

--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

In article
,
G-squared wrote:

In the most recent TV Technology magzine the manufacturers are asking
for an extension because they can't get the program guide info into
the PSIP scccurately when things change on the fly like a sporting
event running longer than expected. Like anybody uses that useless
'feature'. When I look for the EPG, it takes a LONG time because it
has to tune in all 20 carriers ( Los Angeles) for several seconds
each. Instead I use Yahoo TV listings.

I have three different old HD tuners here, and only one of them even
supports EPG. On that one you have to tune to a given channel before
it'll pick up the EPG for it, with no "wait for the tuner to go through
every channel" thing going on.

In article
,
Albert Manfredi wrote:

I don't see why that should warrant an extension to the analog shutoff
date. Sounds more like another delaying tactic to me. As far as I'm
concerned, the faster analog is shut off, the better. Broadcasters
will finally optimize their digital plants, and interference from very
powerful analog stations will finally cease. The spectrum is just too
crowded as is.

I noticed the other day when I was down in San Antonio that between
there and here in Austin, the hardest to tune channels have their analog
on either channel N-1 or N+1. (8-9, 29-30, 42-43) The only Waco station
I get any signal from is adjacent to its analog channel (25-26), and
it's hard to tune sometimes too.

There's one case in Austin where two digital channels are adjacent
(21-22), and those are actually two of the easiest to tune in.

I'm wondering if this is a coincidence, or if an adjacent analog channel
(even from the same antenna farm) really does make an ATSC station hard
to tune in.

If this is true, then the shut-off can't come any too soon for me.

I noticed the other day when I was down in San Antonio that between
there and here in Austin, the hardest to tune channels have their analog
on either channel N-1 or N+1. (8-9, 29-30, 42-43) The only Waco station
I get any signal from is adjacent to its analog channel (25-26), and
it's hard to tune sometimes too.

If the analog and digital channels are physically adjacent (in
frequency), then you're probably seeing adjacent-channel interference.
The digital station probably isn't at full power yet, but the analog
one is, which just makes things worse for the digital station.

If the two stations on adjacent frequencies are owned by the same
station, it probably doesn't want to make its analog transmissions
WORSE yet by using full power for digital.

There's one case in Austin where two digital channels are adjacent
(21-22), and those are actually two of the easiest to tune in.

I'm wondering if this is a coincidence, or if an adjacent analog channel
(even from the same antenna farm) really does make an ATSC station hard
to tune in.

I think the same problem occurs with analog vs. analog adjacent
channels, keeping in mind that there are frequency gaps between
bands, so the FCC avoids allocating adjacent channels too close
together, even before any of this digital stuff came up.

If this is true, then the shut-off can't come any too soon for me.

"Bruce Tomlin" wrote in message
...

I'm wondering if this is a coincidence, or if an adjacent analog channel
(even from the same antenna farm) really does make an ATSC station hard
to tune in.

If this is true, then the shut-off can't come any too soon for me.

KFMB is analog Ch 8 from Mount Soledad in San Diego. KFMB-DT is Ch 7 from
the same place. No problems -- BUT -- I am receiving them with a UHF
antenna. If I were to hook my box to a VHF antenna, the stronger signal
might show up a problem. I'll try it and see what happens.

I normally don't watch any VHF channels since all the locals are on cable
anyway. My real use for digital OTA is for LA stations that the local
cableco doesn't import. They're all UHF.

"Bruce Tomlin" wrote in message
...
In article
,
G-squared wrote:

In the most recent TV Technology magzine the manufacturers are asking
for an extension because they can't get the program guide info into
the PSIP scccurately when things change on the fly like a sporting
event running longer than expected. Like anybody uses that useless
'feature'. When I look for the EPG, it takes a LONG time because it
has to tune in all 20 carriers ( Los Angeles) for several seconds
each. Instead I use Yahoo TV listings.

I have three different old HD tuners here, and only one of them even
supports EPG. On that one you have to tune to a given channel before
it'll pick up the EPG for it, with no "wait for the tuner to go through
every channel" thing going on.

The new Magnavox's EPG seems to be available in a second or two. The LONG
wait applies to my elderly Samsung box.

Funny, the Samsung finds two PBS subchannels that are blank - no A/V - and
the Magnavox doesn't. No idea what's up with that.

In alt.video.digital-tv Gordon Burditt wrote:

| If the analog and digital channels are physically adjacent (in
| frequency), then you're probably seeing adjacent-channel interference.
| The digital station probably isn't at full power yet, but the analog
| one is, which just makes things worse for the digital station.
|
| If the two stations on adjacent frequencies are owned by the same
| station, it probably doesn't want to make its analog transmissions
| WORSE yet by using full power for digital.

This would only be the case on especially cheap or antique TVs. Most TVs
work just fine with adjacent channels at the same strength. Otherwise
people would have had way too much trouble with cable TV over the past
many years and even decades. TVs I had in the 1970's worked fine with
the whole VHF band filled up. The later when I put up antennas to get
some UHF stations, two of them were 33 and 34. 33 was rather strong
being only 20 miles away, and 34 was rather weak being 90 miles away.
But 34 still worked. I also had 15 and 16, but both were a bit weak.
And this was on a couple hybrid TVs from the late 1969's, one from
RCA and one from Zenith.


| I think the same problem occurs with analog vs. analog adjacent
| channels, keeping in mind that there are frequency gaps between
| bands, so the FCC avoids allocating adjacent channels too close
| together, even before any of this digital stuff came up.

The issues might exist when both stations are overloading the tuner, or when
one is substantially stronger than the other. But I have generally had no
problem with adjacent channels in analog transmission. I expect even fewer
problems of this type with digital.

--
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On Thu, 1 May 2008 11:28:49 -0700 (PDT), Albert Manfredi
wrote:

On May 1, 10:32*am, G-squared wrote:

In the most recent TV Technology magzine the manufacturers are asking
for an extension because they can't get the program guide info into
the PSIP scccurately when things change on the fly like a sporting
event running longer than expected. Like anybody uses that useless
'feature'. When I look for the EPG, it takes a LONG time because it
has to tune in all 20 carriers ( Los Angeles) for several seconds
each. Instead I use Yahoo TV listings.

I don't see why that should warrant an extension to the analog shutoff
date. Sounds more like another delaying tactic to me. As far as I'm
concerned, the faster analog is shut off, the better. Broadcasters
will finally optimize their digital plants, and interference from very
powerful analog stations will finally cease. The spectrum is just too
crowded as is.

As to the EPG, that's an anicllary function, not well implemented at
all, in my experience, and they can work the bugs out over time. I
also hardly ever use the EPG. For one thing, ever tried getting the
next day's schedule off it? Can't be done. Broadcasters don't include
that information. What good is it?

Bert

You guys are mixing this up a bit. No one is looking for an extension
to the analog shutoff date because of the dynamic PSIP requirement.
It's the fast-closing date of the new PSIP rule that's in question.

My guess is that most of the stations in this country have no way of
constantly updating the EIT to reflect sports running long, breaking
news or weather or even network special reports. Or how about Idol
running a few minutes long?

We're all looking into the hardware, software and automation changes
required, but there doesn't seem to be any way to meet the May 30
deadline. The manufacturers aren't ready. This is the extension we're
looking for.

DM

In alt.tv.tech.hdtv Sal M. Onella wrote:

| "Bruce Tomlin" wrote in message
| ...
|
| I'm wondering if this is a coincidence, or if an adjacent analog channel
| (even from the same antenna farm) really does make an ATSC station hard
| to tune in.
|
| If this is true, then the shut-off can't come any too soon for me.
|
| KFMB is analog Ch 8 from Mount Soledad in San Diego. KFMB-DT is Ch 7 from
| the same place. No problems -- BUT -- I am receiving them with a UHF
| antenna. If I were to hook my box to a VHF antenna, the stronger signal
| might show up a problem. I'll try it and see what happens.
|
| I normally don't watch any VHF channels since all the locals are on cable
| anyway. My real use for digital OTA is for LA stations that the local
| cableco doesn't import. They're all UHF.

But be aware that KABC-DT, KCAL-DT, KTTV-DT, and KCOP-DT will all be going
back to their VHF allocations (7, 9, 11, 13) post-transition. And you are
probably going to have problems with KFLA-LD on channel 8.

http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |

In alt.tv.tech.hdtv Dennis Majewicz wrote:

| You guys are mixing this up a bit. No one is looking for an extension
| to the analog shutoff date because of the dynamic PSIP requirement.
| It's the fast-closing date of the new PSIP rule that's in question.

But it is an opportunity for Bob to propose yet another delay so he can then
propose to change the system over to COFDM.


| My guess is that most of the stations in this country have no way of
| constantly updating the EIT to reflect sports running long, breaking
| news or weather or even network special reports. Or how about Idol
| running a few minutes long?

Maybe not with current equipment. Smarter software programming on the
computers that do this is possible. With the right programmers on staff,
businesses could get this done in a couple weeks and release to testing.
Unfortunately, most big businesses prefer to hire "commodity programmers"
(e.g. someone on the upper edge of mediocre that will work for peanuts).


| We're all looking into the hardware, software and automation changes
| required, but there doesn't seem to be any way to meet the May 30
| deadline. The manufacturers aren't ready. This is the extension we're
| looking for.

And when was the rule change actually passed? Or even proposed? Did they
really not have enough time, or did they drag their feet hoping it would all
just "go away"?

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |