Future of TIVO ?

On 2008-04-29, Chris F Clark wrote:
Wes Newell writes:

Specifics on what. Who was waiting? Me for one. I'd been wanting to record
to HDD since long before Tivo was even a dream. And I'm sure there must
have been thousands of other people. I think Tivo and Replay were the
first to actually build a working consumer box, but the idea for one has
been around for at least 10 years before that.

Actually, that is the point of a patent and show why the TiVo patent
is a good one. Patents are about successfully doing something that

Hardly.

The relevant components became cheap enough that the obvious
bits of systems integration could be done. The device just became
cheap enough to produce as a consumer product. It wasn't
inachievable before that.

"everyone" has wanted to do (but has not succeeded in doing) for
years. I believe this is called "reducing to practice". The first
person who actually succeeds in doing something gets the patent,
because they have shown that it is not only theoretically possible,
but also practically possible and that's what patents are rewards for.
Lots of people are good at hand-waving arguments that say something
should be possible, many fewer can actually execute and create that
possible thing.

You're the one that's doing the handwaving and ignoring the
relevant practitioners.

--

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Wes Newell wrote:
Specifics on what. Who was waiting? Me for one. I'd been wanting to record
to HDD since long before Tivo was even a dream. And I'm sure there must
have been thousands of other people. I think Tivo and Replay were the
first to actually build a working consumer box, but the idea for one has
been around for at least 10 years before that. And the fact that anyone
can get a patent on ideas like this is just plain stupid. All they should
have been able to do is copyright their code and patent any special IC's
they designed.

I had an ATI All-in-Wonder video card and was using that years beore
TiVo ever came out. I would capute shows while I was out and watch them
again later. I had a DirecTV box in the office so I could watch TV on
the computer and play back recorded shows.

Must have been 7-8 years ago because I have an 8500DV now and that's
old.

JEDIDIAH wrote:

On 2008-04-29, MegaZone wrote:
Douglas Johnson shaped the electrons to say:
Specifics on what prior art invalidates their patent. Have you read and
understood the patent? Do you know what they claim to have invented? You're
still blowing smoke.

And the patent was challenged, reviewed, and upheld by the USPTO. No
one was able to show prior art that invalidates it.

Considering the notion that the original grant was in error this
doesn't really demonstrate anything. It also wouldn't be the only case
where clear prior art was ignored. Prior art has even been acknowledged
and then ignored.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Wes. What specific prior art teaches or
makes obvious all of the elements of any of the claims in the patent? Actually,
to invalidate the entire patent, you need to invalidate all of the claims.

If you've read the patent, you'll know you'll need to do more than say "VCR" or
"hard drive" or "saving one program while watching another". If you haven't
read the patent in detail, you're blowing smoke.

-- Doug

wrote:
I had an ATI All-in-Wonder video card and was using that years beore
TiVo ever came out. I would capute shows while I was out and watch them
again later. I had a DirecTV box in the office so I could watch TV on
the computer and play back recorded shows.

Must have been 7-8 years ago because I have an 8500DV now and that's
old.

The TiVo is 10 years old (first public trials in 1998; production in 1999).

The patent was filed in 1998, and approved in 2001.
http://www.news.com/2100-1040-258207.html

--
Stephen Harris

The truth is the truth, and opinion just opinion. But what is what?
My employer pays to ignore my opinions; you get to do it for free.

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:26:13 -0500, Douglas Johnson wrote:

I'll ask you the same question I asked Wes. What specific prior art
teaches or makes obvious all of the elements of any of the claims in the
patent? Actually, to invalidate the entire patent, you need to
invalidate all of the claims.

Do you really want to waste your time going over the claims? Even their
first claim is not correct. The rest of pretty much just says we're going
to save it to disk and you can play it back at your convenience. The whole
damn patent is a joke. Invent a cure for AIDS or something and get a
patent. This is ridiculous. Just a bunch of legalese describing how to
save and read data from HDD. Should have been laughed out of the patent
office.

What is claimed is:

1. A process for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia
data, comprising the steps of:

*OK, this is a false claim. the operation is not simultaneous.*

accepting television (TV) broadcast signals, wherein said TV signals are
based on a multitude of standards, including, but not limited to, National
Television Standards Committee (NTSC) broadcast, PAL broadcast, satellite
transmission, DSS, DBS, or ATSC;

tuning said TV signals to a specific program;

providing at least one Input Section, wherein said Input Section converts
said specific program to an Moving Pictures Experts Group (MPEG) formatted
stream for internal transfer and manipulation;

providing a Media Switch, wherein said Media Switch parses said MPEG
stream, said MPEG stream is separated into its video and audio components;

storing said video and audio components on a storage device;

providing at least one Output Section, wherein said Output Section
extracts said video and audio components from said storage device;

wherein said Output Section assembles said video and audio components into
an MPEG stream;

wherein said Output Section sends said MPEG stream to a decoder;

wherein said decoder converts said MPEG stream into TV output signals;

wherein said decoder delivers said TV output signals to a TV receiver; and

accepting control commands from a user, wherein said control commands are
sent through the system and affect the flow of said MPEG stream.

2. The process of claim 1, wherein said Input Section directs said MPEG
stream to the destination indicated by said control commands.

3. The process of claim 1, wherein said Output Section extracts said video
and audio components from the storage device indicated by said control
commands.

4. The process of claim 1, further comprising the step of:

creating custom video output sequences, wherein said sequences are
specified by a user or program control.

5. The process of claim 1, wherein the storing and extracting of said
video and audio components from said storage device are performed
simultaneously.

6. The process of claim 1, wherein said Media Switch calculates and
logically associates a time stamp to said video and audio components.

7. The process of claim 1, wherein said Media Switch extracts time stamp
values from a digital TV stream and logically associates said time stamp
values to said video and audio components.

8. The process of claim 1, further comprising the steps of:

placing said video component into a circular video buffer;

posting an event in a circular event buffer, wherein said event contains
an indication that a video component was found and the location of said
video component in said circular video buffer; and

sending notice of said event posting.

9. The process of claim 1, further comprising the steps of:

placing said audio component into a circular audio buffer;

posting an event in a circular event buffer, wherein said event contains
an indication that an audio component was found and the location of said
audio component in said circular audio buffer; and

sending notice of said event posting.

10. The process of claims 8 or 9, further comprising the steps of:

receiving said notice;

retrieving said event posting from said event buffer; and

indexing into the appropriate buffer indicated by the type and location
information in said event buffer.

11. The process of claim 10, further comprising the steps of:

generating a buffer containing the logical audio or video segments in
order, including ancillary information, wherein each of said logical
segments points to the appropriate circular buffer location where
corresponding audio or video components have been placed.

12. The process of claim 1, further comprising the step of:

increasing the decoder system clock rate for fast playback or fast reverse
playback.

13. The process of claim 1, further comprising the step of:

decreasing the decoder system clock rate for slow playback or slow reverse
playback.

14. The process of claim 1, further comprising the step of:

combining system audio cues and on-screen displays with said TV output
signals.

15. The process of claim 1, further comprising the steps of:

decoding the Vertical Blanking Interval (VBI) data or private data channel
information from said TV signal; and

examining said data to determine the starting or ending indicators of a
specific program.

16. The process of claim 1, further comprising the step of:

scanning the words contained within the closed caption (CC) fields to
determine program starting and ending times, wherein particular words or
phrases are used to trigger the recording of a specific program and
wherein the CC information is preserved in time synchronization with the
audio and video, and can be correctly presented to the viewer when the
stream is displayed.

17. The process of claim 16, further comprising the step of:

performing a specific action when a specific word is found in said CC
information.

18. The process of claim 1, wherein said Media Switch has a data bus
connecting it to a CPU and DRAM.

19. The process of claim 1, wherein said Media Switch shares an address
bus with a CPU and DRAM.

20. The process of claim 1, wherein said Media Switch operates
asychronously and autonomously with a CPU.

21. The process of claim 1, wherein said storage device is connected to
said Media Switch.

22. The process of claim 1, wherein said Media Switch allows the CPU to
queue up Direct Memory Access (DMA) transfers.

23. The process of claim 1, wherein said Media Switch is implemented in
hardware.

24. The process of claim 1, further comprising the step of:

providing a multimedia recording device, including, but not limited to, a
Video Cassette Recorder (VCR) or a Digital Video Disk-Random Access Memory
(DVD-RAM) device, wherein said recording device is attached to the output
side of said decoder, allowing said user to record said TV output signals.

25. The process of claim 24, wherein said user queues up programs from
said storage device to be stored on said recording device.

26. The process of claim 24, wherein said user sets time schedules for
said programs to be sent to said recording device.

27. The process of claim 24, wherein title pages may be sent to said
recording device before sending a program to be stored on said recording
device.

28. The process of claim 24, wherein a program that is longer in duration
than a magnetic tape in said recording device allows, is sped up to fit
within the desired time limit.

29. The process of claim 24, wherein a program that is longer in duration
than a magnetic tape in said recording device allows, has frames dropped
from it to fit within the desired time limit.

30. The process of claim 24, wherein the output of said recording device
is routed to said Input Section, allowing said recording device to act as
a storage back up system, said recording device accepts overflow storage,
TV programs, software updates, or other data that are later retrieved and
sent to said Input Section.

31. A process for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia
data, comprising the steps of:

providing a physical data source, wherein said physical data source
accepts broadcast data from an input device, parses video and audio data
from said broadcast data, and temporarily stores said video and audio data;

providing a source object, wherein said source object extracts video and
audio data from said physical data source;

providing a transform object, wherein said transform object stores and
retrieves data streams onto a storage device;

wherein said source object obtains a buffer from said transform object,
said source object converts video data into data streams and fills said
buffer with said streams;

wherein said source object is automatically flow controlled by said
transform object;

providing a sink object, wherein said sink object obtains data stream
buffers from said transform object and outputs said streams to a video and
audio decoder;

wherein said decoder converts said streams into display signals and sends
said signals to a display;

wherein said sink object is automatically flow controlled by said
transform object;

providing a control object, wherein said control object receives commands
from a user, said commands control the flow of the broadcast data through
the system; and

wherein said control object sends flow command events to said source,
transform, and sink objects.

32. An apparatus for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia
data, comprising:

a module for accepting television (TV) broadcast signals, wherein said TV
signals are based on a multitude of standards, including, but not limited
to, National Television Standards Committee (NTSC) broadcast, PAL
broadcast, satellite transmission, DSS, DBS, or ATSC;

a module for tuning said TV signals to a specific program;

at least one Input Section, wherein said Input Section converts said
specific program to an Moving Pictures Experts Group (MPEG) formatted
stream for internal transfer and manipulation;

a Media Switch, wherein said Media Switch parses said MPEG stream, said
MPEG stream is separated into its video and audio components;

a module for storing said video and audio components on a storage device;

at least one Output Section, wherein said Output Section extracts said
video and audio components from said storage device;

wherein said Output Section assembles said video and audio components into
an MPEG stream;

wherein said Output Section sends said MPEG stream to a decoder;

wherein said decoder converts said MPEG stream into TV output signals;

wherein said decoder delivers said TV output signals to a TV receiver; and

accepting control commands from a user, wherein said control commands are
sent through the system and affect the flow of said MPEG stream.

33. The apparatus of claim 32, wherein said Input Section directs said
MPEG stream to the destination indicated by said control commands.

34. The apparatus of claim 32, wherein said Output Section extracts said
video and audio components from the storage device indicated by said
control commands.

35. The apparatus of claim 32, further comprising:

a module for creating custom video output sequences, wherein said
sequences are specified by a user or program control.

36. The apparatus of claim 32, wherein the storing and extracting of said
video and audio components from said storage device are performed
simultaneously.

37. The apparatus of claim 32, wherein said Media Switch calculates and
logically associates a time stamp to said video and audio components.

38. The apparatus of claim 32, wherein said Media Switch extracts time
stamp values from a digital TV stream and logically associates said time
stamp values to said video and audio components.

39. The apparatus of claim 32, further comprising:

a module for placing said video component into a circular video buffer;

a module for posting an event in a circular event buffer, wherein said
event contains an indication that a video component was found and the
location of said video component in said circular video buffer; and

a module for sending notice of said event posting.

40. The apparatus of claim 32, further comprising:

a module for placing said audio component into a circular audio buffer;

a module for posting an event in a circular event buffer, wherein said
event contains an indication that an audio component was found and the
location of said audio component in said circular audio buffer; and

a module for sending notice of said event posting.

41. The apparatus of claims 39 or 40, further comprising:

a module for receiving said notice;

a module for retrieving said event posting from said event buffer; and

a module for indexing into the appropriate buffer indicated by the type
and location information in said event buffer.

42. The apparatus of claim 41, further comprising:

a module for generating a buffer containing the logical audio or video
segments in order, including ancillary information, wherein each of said
logical segments points to the appropriate circular buffer location where
corresponding audio or video components have been placed.

43. The apparatus of claim 32, further comprising:

a module for increasing the decoder system clock rate for fast playback or
fast reverse playback.

44. The apparatus of claim 32, further comprising:

a module for decreasing the decoder system clock rate for slow playback or
slow reverse playback.

45. The apparatus of claim 32, further comprising:

a module for combining system audio cues and on-screen displays with said
TV output signals.

46. The apparatus of claim 32, further comprising:

a module for decoding the Vertical Blanking Interval (VBI) data or private
data channel information from said TV signal; and

a module for examining said data to determine the starting or ending
indicators of a specific program.

47. The apparatus of claim 32, further comprising:

a module for scanning the words contained within the closed caption (CC)
fields to determine program starting and ending times, wherein particular
words or phrases are used to trigger the recording of a specific program
and wherein the CC information is preserved in time synchronization with
the audio and video, and can be correctly presented to the viewer when the
stream is displayed.

48. The apparatus of claim 47, further comprising:

a module for performing a specific action when a specific word is found in
said CC information.

49. The apparatus of claim 32, wherein said Media Switch has a data bus
connecting it to a CPU and DRAM.

50. The apparatus of claim 32, wherein said Media Switch shares an address
bus with a CPU and DRAM.

51. The apparatus of claim 32, wherein said Media Switch operates
asychronously and autonomously with a CPU.

52. The apparatus of claim 32, wherein said storage device is connected to
said Media Switch.

53. The apparatus of claim 32, wherein said Media Switch allows the CPU to
queue up Direct Memory Access (DMA) transfers.

54. The apparatus of claim 32, further comprising:

a multimedia recording device, including, but not limited to, a Video
Cassette Recorder (VCR) or a Digital Video Disk-Random Access Memory (DVD-
RAM) device, wherein said recording device is attached to the output side
of said decoder, allowing said user to record said TV output signals.

55. The apparatus of claim 54, wherein said user queues up programs from
said storage device to be stored on said recording device.

56. The apparatus of claim 54, wherein said user sets time schedules for
said programs to be sent to said recording device.

57. The apparatus of claim 54, wherein title pages may be sent to said
recording device before sending a program to be stored on said recording
device.

58. The apparatus of claim 54, wherein a program that is longer in
duration than a magnetic tape in said recording device allows, is sped up
to fit within the desired time limit.

59. The apparatus of claim 54, wherein a program that is longer in
duration than a magnetic tape in said recording device allows, has frames
dropped from it to fit within the desired time limit.

60. The apparatus of claim 54, wherein the output of said recording device
is routed to said Input Section, allowing said recording device to act as
a storage back up system, said recording device accepts overflow storage,
TV programs, software updates, or other data that are later retrieved and
sent to said Input Section.

61. An apparatus for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia
data, comprising:

a physical data source, wherein said physical data source accepts
broadcast data from an input device, parses video and audio data from said
broadcast data, and temporarily stores said video and audio data;

a source object, wherein said source object extracts video and audio data
from said physical data source;

a transform object, wherein said transform object stores and retrieves
data streams onto a storage device;

wherein said source object obtains a buffer from said transform object,
said source object converts video data into data streams and fills said
buffer with said streams;

wherein said source object is automatically flow controlled by said
transform object;

a sink object, wherein said sink object obtains data stream buffers from
said transform object and outputs said streams to a video and audio
decoder;

wherein said decoder converts said streams into display signals and sends
said signals to a display;

wherein said sink object is automatically flow controlled by said
transform object;

a control object, wherein said control object receives commands from a
user, said commands control the flow of the broadcast data through the
system; and

wherein said control object sends flow command events to said source,
transform, and sink objects.


--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
My Tivo Experience http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/tivo.htm
Tivo HD/S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
AMD cpu help http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php

On 2008-04-29, Wes Newell wrote:
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:26:13 -0500, Douglas Johnson wrote:

I'll ask you the same question I asked Wes. What specific prior art
teaches or makes obvious all of the elements of any of the claims in the
patent? Actually, to invalidate the entire patent, you need to
invalidate all of the claims.

Do you really want to waste your time going over the claims? Even their
first claim is not correct. The rest of pretty much just says we're going
to save it to disk and you can play it back at your convenience. The whole
damn patent is a joke. Invent a cure for AIDS or something and get a
patent. This is ridiculous. Just a bunch of legalese describing how to
save and read data from HDD. Should have been laughed out of the patent
office.

What is claimed is:

1. A process for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia
data, comprising the steps of:

*OK, this is a false claim. the operation is not simultaneous.*

Actually, the operation could be simultaneous. I don't think the current
implementation is simultaneous, but there isn't a technical reason why it
couldn't be. I do believe everyone (minus Wes) will be ok saying "within
a few ms" is close enough to simultaneous, such that it wouldn't
invalidate the entire patent.

--
This is my .sig

Wes Newell wrote:

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:26:13 -0500, Douglas Johnson wrote:

I'll ask you the same question I asked Wes. What specific prior art
teaches or makes obvious all of the elements of any of the claims in the
patent? Actually, to invalidate the entire patent, you need to
invalidate all of the claims.

Do you really want to waste your time going over the claims? Even their
first claim is not correct. The rest of pretty much just says we're going
to save it to disk and you can play it back at your convenience. The whole
damn patent is a joke. Invent a cure for AIDS or something and get a
patent. This is ridiculous. Just a bunch of legalese describing how to
save and read data from HDD. Should have been laughed out of the patent
office.

What is claimed is:

1. A process for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia
data, comprising the steps of:

*OK, this is a false claim. the operation is not simultaneous.*

Are you saying TiVo can't play one program and store another simultaneously?
Doesn't matter one way or the other. How TiVo has chosen to implement their
boxes doesn't effect their patents.

Are you saying that low level disk operations are serialized and thus not
simultaneous at that level? Doesn't matter. With buffers, it is simultaneous
at the system level.

I'm never heard "false claim" as a term of art in the patent world. A claim is
either valid or not.

You're still blowing smoke. You said the patent was invalid. To invalidate a
patent, you need specific prior art that teaches or makes obvious each element
of each claim of the patent. I keep asking for that, you keep dodging and
weaving.

-- Doug

cut and paste of patent text deleted

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:07:12 GMT, Wes Newell wrote:
On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:26:13 -0500, Douglas Johnson wrote:

What is claimed is:

1. A process for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia
data, comprising the steps of:

*OK, this is a false claim. the operation is not simultaneous.*

Sure it is. Simultaneous means "at the same time", not "in
synchronization." Even if TiVo's input and output streams happen to
belong to entirely different programs, they are still operating
simultaneously.


--
Dave Seaman
Third Circuit ignores precedent in Mumia Abu-Jamal ruling.
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/03/29/18489281.php

Doug,
Wes is our resident troll. You are trying to teach a pig to sing
here. In strict technical matters he has been proven wrong time and
time again. In something like this, that would require him to
actually become educated and do a little reading, he will probably
just end up insulting you or your mother and throw another hissy fit.

I would assume the defendants lawyers looked over the claims and would
have tried to invalidate any that the could, that's enough for me to
know that they're probably all good. The odds that the Supreme Court
will hear this is essentially nil, so the only thing left to do is
wait until they formally state they will not hear it.

On Apr 29, 7:24*pm, Douglas Johnson wrote:

You're still blowing smoke. *You said the patent was invalid. To invalidate a
patent, you need specific prior art that teaches or makes obvious *each element
of each claim of the patent. *I keep asking for that, you keep dodging and
weaving.

-- Doug

wrote:

Doug,
Wes is our resident troll. You are trying to teach a pig to sing
here.

Sigh. I should know better. I guess the devil made me do it.

I would assume the defendants lawyers looked over the claims and would
have tried to invalidate any that the could, that's enough for me to
know that they're probably all good.

Oh, yeah. The defendants' lawyers spent millions trying to invalidate the
claims, I'm sure. The real irony is that, if Wes could invalidate the claims,
he could pick up a nice piece of change.

-- Doug