Best BluRay Players for Audio? Or Keep A35.

I purchased an A35 a few months ago, and I'm considering trading it in
on a BluRay (my dealer has a partial exchange arrangement). Since I
haven't followed the BluRay models, I would appreciate suggestions for
BluRay players with the best audio options, hopefully with the
(eventual) capability of decoding, or at least bitstreaming, all the
lossless codecs. The A35, for example, can output lossless audio through
either HDMI or through analog RCA outs. (I'm aware that there isn't much
software with high-rez audio now, but would prefer to be ready when it
comes.) I really don't think I would use the profile 2.0 features, so
that isn't of much interest. Also, I would prefer not to pay a premium
price (prefer under $500 to $600)in view of the rapidly changing
technology. I expect to get one of the HDMI 1.3 AVRs or pre/pros, so
perhaps the bistream option is all I need.

I would appreciate advice on the following options:

1) Keep the A35 until the BluRay technology is more mature.
(The Toshiba has great picture and sound, but I hesitate to invest in
a dying technology.)

2) Get a PS3, keep the Toshiba.
(Apparently the most future-proof unit at the moment?)

3) Get a PS3, trade in the Toshiba, and enjoy the BluRay video for the
time being; plan on getting another unit in a year or so.

4) Wait for one of the new units scheduled for release in the next few
months, such as the Sony 350 or 550, or later, the Oppo BluRay.

5) Other options?


Please excuse my ignorance concerning the BluRay options. - I didn't
expect HD DVD to go down so suddently.

Thanks,
Jim Cate

#4. Current options are a bit price-y.

Kal


On Tue, 01 Apr 2008 06:58:44 -0600, JimC
wrote:


I purchased an A35 a few months ago, and I'm considering trading it in
on a BluRay (my dealer has a partial exchange arrangement). Since I
haven't followed the BluRay models, I would appreciate suggestions for
BluRay players with the best audio options, hopefully with the
(eventual) capability of decoding, or at least bitstreaming, all the
lossless codecs. The A35, for example, can output lossless audio through
either HDMI or through analog RCA outs. (I'm aware that there isn't much
software with high-rez audio now, but would prefer to be ready when it
comes.) I really don't think I would use the profile 2.0 features, so
that isn't of much interest. Also, I would prefer not to pay a premium
price (prefer under $500 to $600)in view of the rapidly changing
technology. I expect to get one of the HDMI 1.3 AVRs or pre/pros, so
perhaps the bistream option is all I need.

I would appreciate advice on the following options:

1) Keep the A35 until the BluRay technology is more mature.
(The Toshiba has great picture and sound, but I hesitate to invest in
a dying technology.)

2) Get a PS3, keep the Toshiba.
(Apparently the most future-proof unit at the moment?)

3) Get a PS3, trade in the Toshiba, and enjoy the BluRay video for the
time being; plan on getting another unit in a year or so.

4) Wait for one of the new units scheduled for release in the next few
months, such as the Sony 350 or 550, or later, the Oppo BluRay.

5) Other options?


Please excuse my ignorance concerning the BluRay options. - I didn't
expect HD DVD to go down so suddently.

Thanks,
Jim Cate

JimC wrote:

I purchased an A35 a few months ago,


me too

current firmware is 2.0, is that what
you have on the machine? it *does*
make a difference.


and I'm considering trading it in on a BluRay
(my dealer has a partial exchange arrangement).


imho, of the 3rd gen players the A35 is
the one worth keeping (i've both an A3
and an A35)

you've already taken the loss on the A35;
yet the A35 has current *and* future value
(especially if you're really into lossless
multichannel sound). also, the A35 doesn't
down-convert DTS-HD into standard DTS (a.k.a.
core-DTS), whereas both the A3 and A30 do


Since I
haven't followed the BluRay models, I would appreciate suggestions for
BluRay players with the best audio options, hopefully with the
(eventual) capability of decoding, or at least bitstreaming, all the
lossless codecs.


i can't really help you with Blu-Ray coz i don't
own one and don't have any experience with any
of them, other than that my reading about both
the discs and the players (stand alone) is that
it/they was/are (and still is) both more expensive
and an unfinished product and somewhat more
problematic (i.e. more bleeding edge)

not to mention that there's still a good supply
of HD-DVD discs that cost a fair amount less
than the BD discs


The A35, for example, can output lossless audio through
either HDMI or through analog RCA outs. (I'm aware that there isn't much
software with high-rez audio now, but would prefer to be ready when it
comes.) I really don't think I would use the profile 2.0 features, so
that isn't of much interest. Also, I would prefer not to pay a premium
price (prefer under $500 to $600)in view of the rapidly changing
technology. I expect to get one of the HDMI 1.3 AVRs or pre/pros, so
perhaps the bistream option is all I need.


fwiw, i currently have a Denon AVR-2307CI (1+ years old),
with a current 3808CI on order

both A3 and A35 work fine with the 2307CI, even though
the 2307CI doesn't decode either Dolby TrueHD nor DTS-HD.
both players have the ability to convert the lossless
5.1 sound into 5.1 PCM sound (in the player), and then
send that converted sound out (via HDMI cable) to the AVR.
the 2307 handles 5.1 PCM sound just fine (via HDMI cable only)

of course, the 3808CI decodes both Dolby TrueHD
and DTS-HD, so i'll have the option of letting
either the player do the decode, or letting the
3808CI AVR do the decode. it will be interesting
to compare if the 3808CI offers any noticeable sound
improvement when the 3808CI does the decoding

one key thing that i like about the 3808CI is that
it is about 9 pounds heavier than the 2307CI

of my current collection of HD-DVD movies (roughly 40),
roughly 15 have TrueHD 5.1 (Presley's old Jailhouse Rock
is in TrueHD 5.1 but the original is mono and the result,
while fairly decent sounding, still sounds very mono),
and not one of my real movies has 5.1 DTS-HD, although
several of them have DTS (which i think is the same as
"core DTS"). to my ear, for DTS 5.1, DD 5.1, and DD+ 5.1,
the pecking order is (worst to "best"):

DD 5.1, DD+ 5.1, DTS 5.1 (DTS 5.1 is noticeably better
than DD 5.1, but only a bit better than DD+ 5.1)

my additional 10 "music" discs:

4 are pop/rock: 2 with HD encoding of both
stereo LPCM as well as 5.1 DTS-HD, 1 with
5.1 TrueHD, and one with only 5.1 DD

imo, best sound/performance is Pat Metheny Group,
The Way Up 5.1 DTS-HD

6 are classical (of which opera, ballet, and
normal video of conductor/orchestra (especially
of a famous conductor like Pierre Boulez)
make the most sense to me; my two with still
pictures are a visual disappointment, but maybe
i'll change my mind with additional replays)

anyhow, of the 6 classical:

1. duo singing (disc currently being
replaced (no cost exchange)), fairly
sure it has 5.1 HD sound but don't
remember which one

2. Magic Flute opera, 5.1 TrueHD; sound
has been distant and have only listened
to about 1st 10 minutes due to continuing
adjustment of sound system, as well as
learning to use my recent A35 and A3 players

3. Swan Lake ballet, 5.0 DTS sound;
very good sound

4. Uncommon Bach (synthesized electronic sound),
5.1 DTS-HD; sound not so good, likely due
to the electronic synthesis process

5. Mahler Symphony2 (Boulez conducting),
confusingly marked (not9 uncommon!), sound is
in fact 5.1 TrueHD and is very very good,
maybe a tie with #6

6. Vivaldi (4 Seasons, Concertos for Double
Orchestra (still pix, ugh!)), 7.1 DTS-HD,
sound is very very good, maybe a tie with #5


out of curiousity, why do you think you need/want
HDMI 1.3?



I would appreciate advice on the following options:

1) Keep the A35 until the BluRay technology is more mature.
(The Toshiba has great picture and sound, but I hesitate to invest in
a dying technology.)


that "dying" technology is likely the
best deal. do you really need to have
Blu-Ray player and discs?

now that i've got real experience, i know
that it hasn't had that much to offer me,
coz i've yet to find that many movies with
great/compelling HD sound (i'm not talking
about the wiz-bang surround sound found
on modern thriller movies, i'm talking about
5.1 sound found on movies like Pride and
Prejudice (2005), Under the Tuscan Sun,
The Thomas Crown Affair (1999))



2) Get a PS3, keep the Toshiba.
(Apparently the most future-proof unit at the moment?)

3) Get a PS3, trade in the Toshiba, and enjoy the BluRay video for the
time being; plan on getting another unit in a year or so.

4) Wait for one of the new units scheduled for release in the next few
months, such as the Sony 350 or 550, or later, the Oppo BluRay.

5) Other options?


use what you've got and get some
meaningful real experience

i'm finding that of 50 discs (so far),
there's only been one HD-DVD disc that
really makes me happy (a movie of all
things) and one that is close to that
(another movie), but i only have a modest
32" LCD TV, so for me it's mainly been
about the sound

the two movies a

Pride and Prejudice (2005, an amazing performance
for the 20 year old female lead, which surprisingly
got very mixed reviews); great dialog, great acting,
great photography, memorable/great 5.1 TrueHD sound)

Blade Runner (final cut w/5.1 TrueHD, 5 disc set)


Please excuse my ignorance concerning the BluRay options. - I didn't
expect HD DVD to go down so suddently.

Thanks,
Jim Cate


i plan to wait before buying into BD or any
other new HD format, hopefully a couple of years
or more

my 50 disc experience has opened my eyes
(and ears), and hasn't cost that much.

regular DVD looks like the far better deal
for the next few years

if you want great multichannel sound, and
great upscaling of standard DVDs with great
remote and player options, as well as speedy
response by the player, buy an OPPO player
and some SACD sound discs (see:
www.oppodigital.com or www.amazon.com)

bill

willbill wrote:
JimC wrote:

I purchased an A35 a few months ago,



me too

current firmware is 2.0, is that what
you have on the machine? it *does*
make a difference.


and I'm considering trading it in on a BluRay (my dealer has a partial
exchange arrangement).



imho, of the 3rd gen players the A35 is
the one worth keeping (i've both an A3
and an A35)

you've already taken the loss on the A35;
yet the A35 has current *and* future value
(especially if you're really into lossless
multichannel sound). also, the A35 doesn't
down-convert DTS-HD into standard DTS (a.k.a.
core-DTS), whereas both the A3 and A30 do


Since I haven't followed the BluRay models, I would appreciate
suggestions for BluRay players with the best audio options, hopefully
with the (eventual) capability of decoding, or at least bitstreaming,
all the lossless codecs.



i can't really help you with Blu-Ray coz i don't
own one and don't have any experience with any
of them, other than that my reading about both
the discs and the players (stand alone) is that
it/they was/are (and still is) both more expensive
and an unfinished product and somewhat more
problematic (i.e. more bleeding edge)

not to mention that there's still a good supply
of HD-DVD discs that cost a fair amount less
than the BD discs


The A35, for example, can output lossless audio through either HDMI or
through analog RCA outs. (I'm aware that there isn't much software
with high-rez audio now, but would prefer to be ready when it comes.)
I really don't think I would use the profile 2.0 features, so that
isn't of much interest. Also, I would prefer not to pay a premium
price (prefer under $500 to $600)in view of the rapidly changing
technology. I expect to get one of the HDMI 1.3 AVRs or pre/pros, so
perhaps the bistream option is all I need.



fwiw, i currently have a Denon AVR-2307CI (1+ years old),
with a current 3808CI on order

both A3 and A35 work fine with the 2307CI, even though
the 2307CI doesn't decode either Dolby TrueHD nor DTS-HD.
both players have the ability to convert the lossless
5.1 sound into 5.1 PCM sound (in the player), and then
send that converted sound out (via HDMI cable) to the AVR.
the 2307 handles 5.1 PCM sound just fine (via HDMI cable only)

of course, the 3808CI decodes both Dolby TrueHD
and DTS-HD, so i'll have the option of letting
either the player do the decode, or letting the
3808CI AVR do the decode. it will be interesting
to compare if the 3808CI offers any noticeable sound
improvement when the 3808CI does the decoding

one key thing that i like about the 3808CI is that
it is about 9 pounds heavier than the 2307CI

of my current collection of HD-DVD movies (roughly 40),
roughly 15 have TrueHD 5.1 (Presley's old Jailhouse Rock
is in TrueHD 5.1 but the original is mono and the result,
while fairly decent sounding, still sounds very mono),
and not one of my real movies has 5.1 DTS-HD, although
several of them have DTS (which i think is the same as
"core DTS"). to my ear, for DTS 5.1, DD 5.1, and DD+ 5.1,
the pecking order is (worst to "best"):

DD 5.1, DD+ 5.1, DTS 5.1 (DTS 5.1 is noticeably better
than DD 5.1, but only a bit better than DD+ 5.1)

my additional 10 "music" discs:

4 are pop/rock: 2 with HD encoding of both
stereo LPCM as well as 5.1 DTS-HD, 1 with
5.1 TrueHD, and one with only 5.1 DD

imo, best sound/performance is Pat Metheny Group,
The Way Up 5.1 DTS-HD

6 are classical (of which opera, ballet, and
normal video of conductor/orchestra (especially
of a famous conductor like Pierre Boulez)
make the most sense to me; my two with still
pictures are a visual disappointment, but maybe
i'll change my mind with additional replays)

anyhow, of the 6 classical:

1. duo singing (disc currently being
replaced (no cost exchange)), fairly
sure it has 5.1 HD sound but don't
remember which one

2. Magic Flute opera, 5.1 TrueHD; sound
has been distant and have only listened
to about 1st 10 minutes due to continuing
adjustment of sound system, as well as
learning to use my recent A35 and A3 players

3. Swan Lake ballet, 5.0 DTS sound;
very good sound

4. Uncommon Bach (synthesized electronic sound),
5.1 DTS-HD; sound not so good, likely due
to the electronic synthesis process

5. Mahler Symphony2 (Boulez conducting),
confusingly marked (not9 uncommon!), sound is
in fact 5.1 TrueHD and is very very good,
maybe a tie with #6

6. Vivaldi (4 Seasons, Concertos for Double
Orchestra (still pix, ugh!)), 7.1 DTS-HD,
sound is very very good, maybe a tie with #5


out of curiousity, why do you think you need/want
HDMI 1.3?



I would appreciate advice on the following options:

1) Keep the A35 until the BluRay technology is more mature.
(The Toshiba has great picture and sound, but I hesitate to invest
in a dying technology.)



that "dying" technology is likely the
best deal. do you really need to have
Blu-Ray player and discs?

now that i've got real experience, i know
that it hasn't had that much to offer me,
coz i've yet to find that many movies with
great/compelling HD sound (i'm not talking
about the wiz-bang surround sound found
on modern thriller movies, i'm talking about
5.1 sound found on movies like Pride and
Prejudice (2005), Under the Tuscan Sun,
The Thomas Crown Affair (1999))



2) Get a PS3, keep the Toshiba.
(Apparently the most future-proof unit at the moment?)

3) Get a PS3, trade in the Toshiba, and enjoy the BluRay video for the
time being; plan on getting another unit in a year or so.

4) Wait for one of the new units scheduled for release in the next few
months, such as the Sony 350 or 550, or later, the Oppo BluRay.

5) Other options?



use what you've got and get some
meaningful real experience

i'm finding that of 50 discs (so far),
there's only been one HD-DVD disc that
really makes me happy (a movie of all
things) and one that is close to that
(another movie), but i only have a modest
32" LCD TV, so for me it's mainly been
about the sound

the two movies a

Pride and Prejudice (2005, an amazing performance
for the 20 year old female lead, which surprisingly
got very mixed reviews); great dialog, great acting,
great photography, memorable/great 5.1 TrueHD sound)

Blade Runner (final cut w/5.1 TrueHD, 5 disc set)


Please excuse my ignorance concerning the BluRay options. - I didn't
expect HD DVD to go down so suddently.

Thanks,
Jim Cate



i plan to wait before buying into BD or any
other new HD format, hopefully a couple of years
or more

my 50 disc experience has opened my eyes
(and ears), and hasn't cost that much.

regular DVD looks like the far better deal
for the next few years

if you want great multichannel sound, and
great upscaling of standard DVDs with great
remote and player options, as well as speedy
response by the player, buy an OPPO player
and some SACD sound discs (see:
www.oppodigital.com or www.amazon.com)

bill


Thanks for taking the time to address these issues. My situation may be
slightly different, in that my dealer has indicated that they will take
the Toshiba back in trade, at least partially, on a BluRay player. So,
perhaps I haven't "taken the loss" on HD DVD yet. The problem, as you
point out, is that BluRay doesn't seem to be as fully developed as the
A35, so if I trade for one of the BluRay players now, there's a good
chance that it may be outdated within a few months. As understood, the
S350 and S550, to be released later this year, will have DTS MA
capabilities. As indicated, if I'm going to invest in HD discs, I think
I would prefer to get them in the (BluRay) format that may be around for
a few years, even though few of them have lossless audio so far. (I
don't have a lot of HD DVDs yet.)

Regarding the Oppo for SACD, yes, it does seem like a good choice. - You
asked why I was interested in HDMI 1.3. - As you may know, the Oppo 980
and 983 output SACD in PCM format via HDMI 1.2 (or 1.3) (The 980 also
outputs SACD in DSD format), both of which can be processed internally
by several of the new AVRs and pre/pros without the usual D/A conversion
steps. (See Kal's article on the Integra and Oppo 980 combination in the
January Stereophile.) Without HDMI 1.2 or greater, this isn't possible
as far as I know.

Jim

JimC wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to address these issues. My situation may be
slightly different, in that my dealer has indicated that they will take
the Toshiba back in trade, at least partially, on a BluRay player. So,
perhaps I haven't "taken the loss" on HD DVD yet.


odds are that you've taken a loss even
if the dealer will provide you with
a "take back" *"deal"*


The problem, as you
point out, is that BluRay doesn't seem to be as fully developed as the
A35, so if I trade for one of the BluRay players now, there's a good
chance that it may be outdated within a few months.


what i see you doing (which i've also done in the past)
is worry about "outdated within a few months"

that's especially easy to do with cutting edge stuff
(like BD stand-alone players (which still have a future))


As understood, the
S350 and S550, to be released later this year, will have DTS MA
capabilities.


have any BD surround sound movies been
released with DTS MA?

(i assume that's the same as DTS-HD?)

of my 10 HD-DVD "music" disks which
have DTS-HD the reality is that while
it's been interesting to experience,
it's not been worth the $150+ that
i spent for the 10 discs


As indicated, if I'm going to invest in HD discs, I think
I would prefer to get them in the (BluRay) format that may be around for
a few years,


BD is clearly still a *pricey* niche product

given that you've got a *decent* A35, get
some real experience before you start
spending on BD


even though few of them have lossless audio so far.
(I don't have a lot of HD DVDs yet.)

Regarding the Oppo for SACD, yes, it does seem like a good choice.


fwiw, i'd forgotten that you were the one
i recently responded to on rec.audio.opinion
about OPPO players reddish grin


- You
asked why I was interested in HDMI 1.3. - As you may know, the Oppo 980
and 983 output SACD in PCM format via HDMI 1.2 (or 1.3) (The 980 also
outputs SACD in DSD format), both of which can be processed internally
by several of the new AVRs and pre/pros without the usual D/A conversion
steps. (See Kal's article on the Integra and Oppo 980 combination in the
January Stereophile.) Without HDMI 1.2 or greater, this isn't possible
as far as I know.


instead of focusing in on newest features, (which
i didn't with my own purchase of a Denon AVR-2307CI),
i suggest you focus in on the quality of what the unit(s)
can do and do do (sorry about that, no joke intended)

it's not clear to me that HDMI 1.3 is really
all that necessary, and appears that my own
newly ordered 3808CI will likely not have
much (if any) 1.3 capability. my current
2307CI has 1.1 capability

i gather that you haven't bought an OPPO?

my own OPPO 981HD ($230) has 5.1 RCA out

imo if you don't mind some cable clutter,
it's the one to get

fwiw, my 5.1 setup has the TV in front with
an open-air stack of AVR, 5 player/recorders,
and an OTA digital TV tuner on top. talk
about cable clutter (behind the units and TV)!

4 of the player/recorders can play CDs. of these
the one that has the most sound options (by far)
is the OPPO

with CDs, the best sounding one is the OPPO

if you have others who'll need a simple
setup to use the gear to listen or watch
something, then maybe an AVR with 1.2/1.3
is the way to go

me, i'm going with the name that i trust
for good sound: Denon

fwiw#2, it won't surprise me at all if Denon
upgrades many (most/all?) of their AVRs to
have HDMI 1.3 in roughly the next 6/7 months

life is short, and i still have good hearing

bill

In article ,
willbill wrote:

As understood, the
S350 and S550, to be released later this year, will have DTS MA
capabilities.


have any BD surround sound movies been
released with DTS MA?

(i assume that's the same as DTS-HD?)

Lots of Fox releases have DTS MA

And MA is supposedly a bit better than DTS MA

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 12:17:15 -0600, willbill
wrote:

my own OPPO 981HD ($230) has 5.1 RCA out

imo if you don't mind some cable clutter,
it's the one to get

SNIP

fwiw#2, it won't surprise me at all if Denon
upgrades many (most/all?) of their AVRs to
have HDMI 1.3 in roughly the next 6/7 months

life is short, and i still have good hearing

Yes and the Oppo 980 is better sounding via
the RCAs and even better via HDMI, if your
processor can handle it.

Kal

willbill wrote:

JimC wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to address these issues.


-snip---




if you have others who'll need a simple
setup to use the gear to listen or watch
something, then maybe an AVR with 1.2/1.3
is the way to go

me, i'm going with the name that i trust
for good sound: Denon

Why not both? In any event, I think I'll wait a little longer. - Second
generation AVRs and BRs will hopefully resolve some of the limitations
and glitches.

Jim

JimC wrote:


willbill wrote:

JimC wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to address these issues.


-snip---




if you have others who'll need a simple
setup to use the gear to listen or watch
something, then maybe an AVR with 1.2/1.3
is the way to go

me, i'm going with the name that i trust
for good sound: Denon

Why not both? In any event, I think I'll wait a little longer.


no worries, that may well be a very good idea


- Second generation AVRs and BRs


that is especially amusing

you must be a fair amount younger than me.

AVRs are likely on at least their 8th
generation (or later). HD-DVD was on it's
3rd generation (your A35) when Toshiba pulled
the plug. BRs, if you go by the 1.0 1.1 2.0
stuff, will soon hit 3rd gen, but the reality
is that BRs have likely gone thru more

i used to think that a newer piece of hi-fi
gear of necessity had to sound better than
an older piece of gear

the truth with sound amps preamps AVRs
and HD units is that a good unit is
a good unit is a good unit

meaning that they may be exceeded by
a still newer unit, but it won't be
by much

a bad unit, on the other hand, is the
best learning experience


will hopefully resolve some of the limitations
and glitches.


good luck with whatever you do

kindly stop asking me questions g

bill

Kalman Rubinson wrote:
On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 12:17:15 -0600, willbill
wrote:

my own OPPO 981HD ($230) has 5.1 RCA out

imo if you don't mind some cable clutter,
it's the one to get

SNIP

fwiw#2, it won't surprise me at all if Denon
upgrades many (most/all?) of their AVRs to
have HDMI 1.3 in roughly the next 6/7 months

life is short, and i still have good hearing

Yes and the Oppo 980 is better sounding via
the RCAs and even better via HDMI, if your
processor can handle it.


i know that you write for one
of the very few magazines that
i subscribe to (Stereophile)

i'm starting to lose faith in you

bill