Pixel policy

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:16:53 GMT, Clem Dye wrote:

theory lets them off the hook. Sorry, but that's a crock. The Sale Of
Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if it has dead
pixels, period. When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it had

This is not so if the seller advertises the screen as being Class II.

You try buying an LCD screen from Dabs and sending it back under SOG
due to a stuck pixel - I don't think you would get very far!

"Jim Hatfield" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 10:16:29 +0000, David Hearn
wrote:

Personally, I wouldn't purchase a large screen LCD TV without viewing it
in the shop with a black screen. Bright pixels are the worst for me.
This is why I'd never buy one online - at least not without a "no dead
pixel" policy (rare).

You could always return it under the Distance Selling Regulations.

having pondered and pondered and having received absolutely NO responses
from their Customer Service I decided to contact Trading Standards.

After I described the problem and informed them of said pixel policies the
officer stated "you have a faulty television" regardless of their Terms and
Conditions (pixel policy) and at nearly £1000 the supplier MUST either
replace or refund.

I have action the request by email, fax and recorded delivery.

"Jim Hatfield" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:16:53 GMT, Clem Dye wrote:

theory lets them off the hook. Sorry, but that's a crock. The Sale Of
Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if it has dead
pixels, period. When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it had

This is not so if the seller advertises the screen as being Class II.

You try buying an LCD screen from Dabs and sending it back under SOG
due to a stuck pixel - I don't think you would get very far!


see my above post re Trading Standards............

On 05/02/2008 18:41, Jim Hatfield wrote:

You could always return it under the Distance Selling Regulations.

Where "always" is restricted to seven days from receipt, and assuming
this wasn't a face-to-face sale.

tpow wrote:
"Jim Hatfield" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:16:53 GMT, Clem Dye wrote:

theory lets them off the hook. Sorry, but that's a crock. The Sale Of
Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if it has dead
pixels, period. When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it had
This is not so if the seller advertises the screen as being Class II.

You try buying an LCD screen from Dabs and sending it back under SOG
due to a stuck pixel - I don't think you would get very far!


see my above post re Trading Standards............

What Jim was talking about though was if the display was advertised as,
and specified by the manufacturer as, a Class 2 device - which specifies
(according to an accepted international standard) that certain pixel
faults are deemed to be acceptable.

In these situations, I very very much doubt that trying to return *AS
FAULTY* a display with pixel faults which were within the international
Class 2 standard (and sold as such) would succeed. Additionally, I
would expect that if you tried to take them to court over it, you would
also fail as the device meets the specifications it was advertised to
meet. The only way you would win, would be to get a judge to say that
ISO 13406-2 Class 2 displays were not of satisfactory quality for sale
in the UK - which would have a serious impact on international standards.

Nothing removes your rights under the Distance Selling Regulations, so
even if the display meets all the specifications it said it would,
you're allowed to return the product for any reason. However, you're
still liable for the original postage cost (it was a service which was
provided), and the return postage costs for DSR returns. For a large TV
this can add up.

You're also required to return the goods in a saleable condition. The
intention of the DSR is that you're able to inspect the goods, just like
you could in a shop. The question is though, many retailers may not
allow you to unpackage and turn on the device in the store (breaks the
manufacturers seal etc). So, opening up the box, breaking the seals and
actually using the device, may well void your rights to return under the
DSR. This is a particular problem with laptops etc, which often cannot
easily be returned to factory condition once turned on, and thus cannot
be returned for immediate sale.

D

Jim Hatfield wrote:
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 10:16:29 +0000, David Hearn
wrote:

Personally, I wouldn't purchase a large screen LCD TV without viewing it
in the shop with a black screen. Bright pixels are the worst for me.
This is why I'd never buy one online - at least not without a "no dead
pixel" policy (rare).

You could always return it under the Distance Selling Regulations.

Unless the cost is significantly less, and I have viewed the TV in a
shop first - I wouldn't buy any large screen TV by distance - simply
because the models vary so widely in picture quality with different
inputs etc. For me, the possibility of dodgy pixels is one small factor
in making a purchase of a large screen TV.

Remember, you're responsible for the cost of returning under the DSR,
and also for payment for delivery (which was a service which was provided)

D

"David Hearn" wrote in message
...
tpow wrote:
"Jim Hatfield" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:16:53 GMT, Clem Dye wrote:

theory lets them off the hook. Sorry, but that's a crock. The Sale Of
Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if it has dead
pixels, period. When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it
had
This is not so if the seller advertises the screen as being Class II.

You try buying an LCD screen from Dabs and sending it back under SOG
due to a stuck pixel - I don't think you would get very far!


see my above post re Trading Standards............

What Jim was talking about though was if the display was advertised as,
and specified by the manufacturer as, a Class 2 device - which specifies
(according to an accepted international standard) that certain pixel
faults are deemed to be acceptable.

In these situations, I very very much doubt that trying to return *AS
FAULTY* a display with pixel faults which were within the international
Class 2 standard (and sold as such) would succeed. Additionally, I would
expect that if you tried to take them to court over it, you would also
fail as the device meets the specifications it was advertised to meet.
The only way you would win, would be to get a judge to say that ISO
13406-2 Class 2 displays were not of satisfactory quality for sale in the
UK - which would have a serious impact on international standards.

Nothing removes your rights under the Distance Selling Regulations, so
even if the display meets all the specifications it said it would, you're
allowed to return the product for any reason. However, you're still
liable for the original postage cost (it was a service which was
provided), and the return postage costs for DSR returns. For a large TV
this can add up.

You're also required to return the goods in a saleable condition. The
intention of the DSR is that you're able to inspect the goods, just like
you could in a shop. The question is though, many retailers may not allow
you to unpackage and turn on the device in the store (breaks the
manufacturers seal etc). So, opening up the box, breaking the seals and
actually using the device, may well void your rights to return under the
DSR. This is a particular problem with laptops etc, which often cannot
easily be returned to factory condition once turned on, and thus cannot be
returned for immediate sale.

D

The trading standards op I spoke to said 1 faulty (dead or stuck) pixel puts
that unit into the Not of Satisfactory Quality bracket un the SoGA 1779 and
IT IS a fault no matter what is said or printed by the supplier and
manufacturer. Think about it its a transistor that's not
working............so its faulty.

ps Toshiba state up to 13 pixels can be "faulty"..............before they
will replace.

What a bag of worms pixels are.

dj

Mike Henry wrote:
In , David Hearn
wrote:

Nothing removes your rights under the Distance Selling Regulations,

[...]
You're also required to return the goods in a saleable condition. The
intention of the DSR is that you're able to inspect the goods, just like
you could in a shop.

That may be the intention, but all that matters is what the law actually
says.

The question is though, many retailers may not
allow you to unpackage and turn on the device in the store (breaks the
manufacturers seal etc).

Indeed. In a shop you wouldn't be able to do that - which is why they
provide you with display models to play with. Then you can buy a sealed
item, knowing that it will be the same as the display one when you've got
it home and set it up.

So, opening up the box, breaking the seals and
actually using the device, may well void your rights to return under the
DSR.

But this isn't a shop, you don't get two TVs in the post - one to play
with and return, and the other that you should only open if you liked the
first one! Under the DSR you need to be able to open, unpack, set up and
use the item in order to decide if it's what you wanted.

This is a particular problem with laptops etc, which often cannot
easily be returned to factory condition once turned on,

Tough, that's the retailer's problem, not the customer's. The DSR still
applies and the customer is entitled to their refund.

and thus cannot be returned for immediate sale.

They certainly can be returned to the retailer by the customer under the
DSR. Restoring default settings is a problem between the retailer and the
manufacturer to be sorted out later.

The cooling off period and right to cancel do not apply to contracts for:
* goods made to the customer's specification;
* perishable goods (flowers, fresh food);
* CD, DVD, and tapes with software, audio or video if unsealed;
* newspapers and magazines;
* betting, gaming and lotteries

I don't see laptops or PCs in that list!

You are correct, and it appears I have misunderstood a number of points
of the DSR. Particuarly:

Original postage must be refunded too.
The goods do not need to be returned in saleable condition, nor even
with the original packaging.
Unless stated in the original contract, you cannot charge for return
delivery.
They cannot require the refund to be withheld until goods are returned.

A very helpful document is:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/bus...ral/oft698.pdf

Particular points:

"Can I insist that consumers who cancel an order within the
cancellation period return the goods as new or in their
original packaging?

3.58 No. Consumers are under a duty to take reasonable care of the goods
while in their possession as discussed in paragraph 3.44. The DSRs
allow consumers to examine goods they have ordered as they would
in a shop. If that requires opening the packaging and trying out the
goods then they have not breached their duty to take reasonable
care of the goods. In these circumstances you cannot insist that
consumers return the goods as new or in their original packaging.
You may ask consumers to return goods with the original packaging,
but you cannot insist on this. In the case of goods such as earrings
that have hygiene seals, you may require consumers to exercise
reasonable care by not removing the seals when examining them.

How can I resell the goods as new if they have been opened
and tested by the customer?

3.59 The DSRs do not provide any general exception to the right to cancel
on this point. Unless one of the specific exceptions referred to above
at paragraph 3.38 applies, consumers can exercise their right to
cancel a contract and return the goods to you. The DSRs do not link
cancellation rights with a supplier’s ability to resell items as new."

"Steve Thackery" writes:

Right! If, for that particular TV, compliance with the ISO is
claimed, then you are absolutely right.

However if ISO compliance is not claimed then the manufacturer/retailer
cannot use the excuse that ISO class 2 allows for a certain number of
faulty (sub-)pixels when the customer complains that the screen is not
perfect.

"Jim Hatfield" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:16:53 GMT, Clem Dye wrote:

theory lets them off the hook. Sorry, but that's a crock. The Sale Of
Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if it has dead
pixels, period. When I purchased my Sony 42-plasma some years ago it had

This is not so if the seller advertises the screen as being Class II.

You try buying an LCD screen from Dabs and sending it back under SOG
due to a stuck pixel - I don't think you would get very far!


Done it last year with a Samsung monitor. It was advertised as Class 1 (by
virtue of ISO compliance and omission of any disclaimer) and I sent it back
within 7 days and got it replaced when I discovered a group of 4 dead
pixels.