Pixel policy

"tpow" wrote in message
...
is there one for new LCD TV's

I bought new Toshiba 40XF355 which was delivered on Friday and gained one
hot pixel over the weekend.

I have asked the suppliers customer service to comment.

I notice it every time now.

Unless it is stated otherwise on the set, in the advertising and by the
retailer before you make a purchase ALL LCD TV's are considered to be ISO
13406-2 Class 1 compliant and therefore must not contain even a single dead
or lit pixel or sub pixel. That is what the ISO standard states. In reality
most screens sold are actually Class 2 compliant but the manufactures and
retailers deliberately hid that fact from you in their literature and
advertising and if that is the case you have the right by the definition of
the standard to expect a Class 1 screen.

If you have a dead pixel on your screen you have the right to a replacement
even if it turns out that the screen is only Class 2 compliant since unless
you were told in clear terms that it was a Class 2 screen and could contain
dead/lit pixels when you bought it you were being sold a Class 1 screen by
definition of the standard. If the screen was not Class 1 then you have the
right to your money back.


dj

"tpow" wrote in message
...

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
On 03/02/2008 13:55, tpow wrote:

"Andy Burns" wrote
ISO 13406-2

that's not exactly public domain when researching and ordering a TV
though............

Equally it's not a state secret, just a bit of research before a purchase

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_13406-2

Most manufacturers will specify Class II, so for a 1920x1080 pixel set,
that equals 4 dead pixels and 4 hot pixels and 10 stuck pixels (of which
4 could be adjacent) before it would be considered sub-standard.

it may not be a state secret but I bet 99.99% of buyers are not even aware
or made aware that this problem exists..............until they see them on
their screen.

should the seller not advertise this fact and should the manufacturer not
include it in the spec sheet on Toshibas web and in the
handbook..............it is in neither as far as I can see.

The sellers are obliged by the ISO standard to advertise the class the
screen complies with in clear view of the customer. If the class is not
stated in clear view the standard states that the screen is automatically to
be assumed to be Class 1 compliant and therefore no defects are permitted.
If for example a web retailer or shop display states a screen is ISO 13406-2
compliant and the class is not mentioned you are to expect a defect free
Class 1 screen. Since by stating ISO 13406-2 compliance with no other
qualifiers they have entered into a contract to sell you a Class 1 screen,
if that screen has any defects you have the right to your money back.

"Steve Thackery" wrote in message
...
The Sale Of Goods covers you here - it's not of merchantable quality if
it has dead pixels, period.

Well, it's alright you saying that, but would it stand up in court?

Yes it would. Unless you are told the screen is not ISO standard Class 1
compliant the relevant standards defaults to the screen being Class 1.

Merchantable quality isn't the same thing as perfect. I think the onus
would be on you to prove that it is not of merchantable quality and that,
frankly, is a judgement call.

The onus is actual on the manufacturer and retailer to prove that they made
you fully aware the screen was not Class 1 compliant and it was sold as a
Class 2 screen.


The existence of that ISO standard would strengthen the vendor's argument
against you.

No it doesn't. It strengthens your argument. All ISO compliant screens are
Class 1 unless stated otherwise. If the advertising or retailer doesn't tell
you its Class 2 then the standard expects to customer to assume it's Class
1. You therefore have the right to your money back if there are any defects.


However, I'm pretty damn sure that if the OP takes it back and threatens a
fuss, it'll get changed like a shot.

SteveT

My point it, does the supplier actually claim it's Class 1 compliant? Or
Class Anything compliant?

Are you saying that all flat panel TVs MUST - in law - comply with Class 1
unless stated otherwise?

I didn't think the ISO standard was legally mandated.

SteveT

"Steve Thackery" wrote in message
...
My point it, does the supplier actually claim it's Class 1 compliant? Or
Class Anything compliant?

It makes no difference. If the class is not clearly mentioned the ISO
standard states that the screen is assumed to be Class 1.


Are you saying that all flat panel TVs MUST - in law - comply with Class 1
unless stated otherwise?

According to the ISO standard all LCD screens are sold as Class 1 screens
unless it is stated clearly and prominently that they are not. The retailers
cannot say afterwards, oh but the small print at the end of the manual says
its Class 2. You don't get to read the manual in the shop.


I didn't think the ISO standard was legally mandated.

It legally mandated that if someone claims by omission that the screen meets
the ISO standard Class 1 and it does not because there are pixel defects
then they are misrepresenting what they are selling and are breaking EU law.
All flat panels are sold on condition they meet ISO standards therefore
unless you are told otherwise the standard states that the screen is being
sold as Class 1 compliant, ie. no defective pixels or subpixels. This is on
top of the Sale of Goods Act which would classify a screen with defective
pixels as being of unmerchanable quality and not fit for purpose even if it
is stated it is only Class 2 compliant, since a consumer is not expected to
know what ISO standards classifications mean. Under the distance selling act
if you are not satisfied with the screen and return it within 7 days even if
the box has been opened and the good have been used then you have the
automatic right to your money back. Under the Sale of Goods Act you have the
right to a replacement or your money back if the goods are defective or are
not fit for the purpose which they are sold, if you make a complaint or
return the goods with 30 days of purchase. The manufacturers or retailers
also have to guarantee the good for a reasonable period of time. If a £3000
LCD screen breaks down after only 3 or even 5 years the must fix it or
replace it or compensate you even if they state the warranty is only for a
year. You don't pay £3000 for something that will only last a year.


SteveT

"Agamemnon" wrote in message
. uk...

"Steve Thackery" wrote in message
...
My point it, does the supplier actually claim it's Class 1 compliant? Or
Class Anything compliant?

It makes no difference. If the class is not clearly mentioned the ISO
standard states that the screen is assumed to be Class 1.


Are you saying that all flat panel TVs MUST - in law - comply with Class
1 unless stated otherwise?

According to the ISO standard all LCD screens are sold as Class 1 screens
unless it is stated clearly and prominently that they are not. The
retailers cannot say afterwards, oh but the small print at the end of the
manual says its Class 2. You don't get to read the manual in the shop.


I didn't think the ISO standard was legally mandated.

It legally mandated that if someone claims by omission that the screen
meets the ISO standard Class 1 and it does not because there are pixel
defects then they are misrepresenting what they are selling and are
breaking EU law. All flat panels are sold on condition they meet ISO
standards therefore unless you are told otherwise the standard states that
the screen is being sold as Class 1 compliant, ie. no defective pixels or
subpixels. This is on top of the Sale of Goods Act which would classify a
screen with defective pixels as being of unmerchanable quality and not fit
for purpose even if it is stated it is only Class 2 compliant, since a
consumer is not expected to know what ISO standards classifications mean.
Under the distance selling act if you are not satisfied with the screen
and return it within 7 days even if the box has been opened and the good
have been used then you have the automatic right to your money back. Under
the Sale of Goods Act you have the right to a replacement or your money
back if the goods are defective or are not fit for the purpose which they
are sold, if you make a complaint or return the goods with 30 days of
purchase. The manufacturers or retailers also have to guarantee the good
for a reasonable period of time. If a £3000 LCD screen breaks down after
only 3 or even 5 years the must fix it or replace it or compensate you
even if they state the warranty is only for a year. You don't pay £3000
for something that will only last a year.


SteveT



the suppliers terms and Conditions say,
All products supplied are covered by the terms and conditions of the
manufacturer for the stipulated warranty period usually 12 months. In
addition routine maintenance ( being the cleaning of audio/ video heads
laser heads etc.), consumables ( being styli, plug fuses, cables, batteries
and bulbs/lamps etc), are not covered under the 12 month guarantee. Neither
is the tuning of channels, connecting up, convergence and user interface
configuration that are available within the user’s remit. Specifically
excluded is cosmetic damage, accident, neglect, misuse and non domestic use
of a domestic product.

All products found to be working to the manufacturers specification will be
subject to carriage/callout charges and surcharges plus an administration
charge of £20.00 for processing information. These charges will be charged
to your credit/debit card. A full breakdown of these costs will be sent to
you. This does not affect any statutory that you may have.

The screens on thin panel technology such as TFT/LCD are made up of
thousands of pixels and comprise of 3 sub-pixels (red, green and blue), so
each picture is made up of millions of dots. Each pixel has a transistor
behind it. If this fails it can cause a bright, dark or coloured dot on the
screen. Unfortunately today’s production methods cannot guarantee a totally
fault free display, so end users should be aware of possible isolated lit or
unlit pixels.

Each manufacturer has their own acceptable tolerance level depending on
quantity and location on the screen. Please check with the relevant
manufacturer as to their tolerance level, as we can only accept back for
repair/replacement/refund if the stuck pixels exceeds their guidelines.

Additional extended warranties may be available on products at an extra
cost. We do advise that you consider taking out an extended warranty
wherever possible for peace of mind. Extended warranties are covered by
Domestic and General Insurance Ltd.

They do not state a class............

dj

Brian W wrote:

"tpow" wrote in message
...
is there one for new LCD TV's

I bought new Toshiba 40XF355 which was delivered on Friday and gained
one hot pixel over the weekend.

I have asked the suppliers customer service to comment.

I notice it every time now.

dj

As far as I'm concerned, a dead pixel is a manufacturing defect,
whatever the company's policy states. If Sony (for example) said that
CDs might jump in a couple of places when played due to the way they're
made, you wouldn't accept that, even though they say it's within spec.

But a CD takes pennies to make and replace, and due to the error
correction, can potentially have faults which are impossible to notice
in normal usage. Whereas a large LCD display costs much more to
manufacture, and a single fault (which in semiconductor manufacturing is
practically impossible to avoid) is often noticeable to the user (and
often once noticed, becomes very obvious, at least at first).

Whilst ideally these displays should be fault free - unfortunately, to
guarantee them, you're looking at throwing away a lot of displays,
pushing up the cost of the remainder.

Many faults are black pixels (so often not noticeable for TV), whereas
some are white, and others are red/green/blue.

Personally, I wouldn't purchase a large screen LCD TV without viewing it
in the shop with a black screen. Bright pixels are the worst for me.
This is why I'd never buy one online - at least not without a "no dead
pixel" policy (rare).

D

Agamemnon wrote:
"tpow" wrote in message
...
is there one for new LCD TV's

I bought new Toshiba 40XF355 which was delivered on Friday and gained one
hot pixel over the weekend.

I have asked the suppliers customer service to comment.

I notice it every time now.

Unless it is stated otherwise on the set, in the advertising and by the
retailer before you make a purchase ALL LCD TV's are considered to be ISO
13406-2 Class 1 compliant and therefore must not contain even a single dead
or lit pixel or sub pixel. That is what the ISO standard states. In reality
most screens sold are actually Class 2 compliant but the manufactures and
retailers deliberately hid that fact from you in their literature and
advertising and if that is the case you have the right by the definition of
the standard to expect a Class 1 screen.

If you have a dead pixel on your screen you have the right to a replacement
even if it turns out that the screen is only Class 2 compliant since unless
you were told in clear terms that it was a Class 2 screen and could contain
dead/lit pixels when you bought it you were being sold a Class 1 screen by
definition of the standard. If the screen was not Class 1 then you have the
right to your money back.


Can you provide evidence of this legal requirement?

I've not heard of ISO 13406-2 being a legal requirement of sale in the
EU. Whilst Wikipedia isn't an authoritative source, it makes no
reference to this - which considering how far reaching your suggested
legal requirement is - I would have thought it would have been mentioned
there. Particularly, the wiki article states:

"The application of this standard is a guideline; it is not mandatory."
and "As of 2007, most manufacturers specify their products as Pixel
Fault Class II."

Certainly sounds optional to me.

If the manufacturer states that it's Class 2 (in the manual which often
states all the detailed specifications, standards etc), then that should
be sufficient. Not every feature and specification needs to be
displayed to the purchaser and I would particularly be surprised if
every ISO spec it meets must be displayed on the device, advertising and
by the retailer.

I would agree though that if the retailer, when asked, says it's a Class
1 display, then it should be a Class 1 display, and any proof otherwise
(eg. a dead pixel) would fit into the "Not fit for purpose" clause
(purpose being a Class 1, no dead pixel, display).

D

Agamemnon wrote:
It legally mandated that if someone claims by omission that the screen meets
the ISO standard Class 1 and it does not because there are pixel defects
then they are misrepresenting what they are selling and are breaking EU law.
All flat panels are sold on condition they meet ISO standards therefore
unless you are told otherwise the standard states that the screen is being

AFAIK, there is no legal requirement in the UK to manufacture or sell
LCDs to ISO 13406-2. There is no 'claim by omission' if the standard is
not referred to in any way.

ESB

"tpow" wrote in message
...

"Agamemnon" wrote in message
. uk...

"Steve Thackery" wrote in message
...
My point it, does the supplier actually claim it's Class 1 compliant?
Or Class Anything compliant?

It makes no difference. If the class is not clearly mentioned the ISO
standard states that the screen is assumed to be Class 1.


Are you saying that all flat panel TVs MUST - in law - comply with Class
1 unless stated otherwise?

According to the ISO standard all LCD screens are sold as Class 1 screens
unless it is stated clearly and prominently that they are not. The
retailers cannot say afterwards, oh but the small print at the end of the
manual says its Class 2. You don't get to read the manual in the shop.


I didn't think the ISO standard was legally mandated.

It legally mandated that if someone claims by omission that the screen
meets the ISO standard Class 1 and it does not because there are pixel
defects then they are misrepresenting what they are selling and are
breaking EU law. All flat panels are sold on condition they meet ISO
standards therefore unless you are told otherwise the standard states
that the screen is being sold as Class 1 compliant, ie. no defective
pixels or subpixels. This is on top of the Sale of Goods Act which would
classify a screen with defective pixels as being of unmerchanable quality
and not fit for purpose even if it is stated it is only Class 2
compliant, since a consumer is not expected to know what ISO standards
classifications mean. Under the distance selling act if you are not
satisfied with the screen and return it within 7 days even if the box has
been opened and the good have been used then you have the automatic right
to your money back. Under the Sale of Goods Act you have the right to a
replacement or your money back if the goods are defective or are not fit
for the purpose which they are sold, if you make a complaint or return
the goods with 30 days of purchase. The manufacturers or retailers also
have to guarantee the good for a reasonable period of time. If a £3000
LCD screen breaks down after only 3 or even 5 years the must fix it or
replace it or compensate you even if they state the warranty is only for
a year. You don't pay £3000 for something that will only last a year.


SteveT



the suppliers terms and Conditions say,

Is the customer expected to have read all that?

NO!

According to the law the suppliers terms and conditions are not legally
binding on the customer since they were not freely negotiated with the
customer.


They do not state a class............

Then they are Class 1 according to the terms of the ISO standard and must
not contain any defective pixels, irrespective of how much the manufactures
want to whinge. Unless it is stated clearly on the product in the show room
that it is other than Class 1 the manufactures claims will not stand up in
court. You have the right to a product without defects and if you don't like
it you may return it within 30 days for a refund.


dj