OTA Antenna Help

otaota wrote:


You can get a more precise analysis at www.tvfool.com if your enter a
specific address or coordinate.

Thanks for bringing our attention to that great site. Puts antenna web
to shame.

Ray K wrote:
otaota wrote:

You can get a more precise analysis atwww.tvfool.comif your enter a
specific address or coordinate.

Thanks for bringing our attention to that great site. Puts antenna web
to shame.

Agreed. I've been struggling with antenna.org and tvfool.com has
helped fill in a few holes, as it doesn't truncate off.

I have a few of my own "OTA Help!" questions. Basically, I need to
figure this stuff out for myself, and then do my parent's house.

My plan is to get an ATSC adaptor for my laptop to use as my reption
testing system, so that its easier to move around, and I'll have a use
for it after upgrading the TV set.

For my own setup, I'm in 07834, which as per tvfool, it looks like I
can be expected to get reasonable coverage (8 in yellow, 2 in red)
with a good OTA antenna on my roof.

My OTA antenna is a VHF/UHF Channel Master that's getting old and
naturally, I don't recall which model ... around a 10ft boom, so
probably something like a 3677 or 3678? It has a Channel Master
analog amplifier on it...not sure how many dB gain its rating is. I
know that I need to do some digging here to flesh out specifics.
Currently with OTA NTSC, my reception in VHF is fine, but UHF is "Ok"
and generally weather-dependant; I have around 50' of clear space
beyond the antenna, then my signal path is obscured by multiple
neighbors' trees (mostly deciduous maple trees). My basic plan here
is to test with the current antenna before it has to be replaced (it
is getting old). Thus, if there's some marginal performance, I can
move up in size.

I have two questions regarding my own setup:

1) In reading tvfool, to determine VHF vs UHF, I should use the
'Real Channel' column to make this determination, correct?

Reason for the question is that for my location (07834 - receiving the
New York City market), it looks like nearly everyone is on UHF, so I'm
wondering if I can go from a VHF/UHF antenna to a UHF only.

2) Is there any risk that some of the big NYC stations might move
their ATSC frequencies back down to their existing VHF frequencies, or
are they now locked in?

Reason: I thought I had read something to this effect somewhere...?

3) Does anyone have any general rules of thumb for what size antennas
(eg, Channel Master model#s) tend to correlate to the Green-Yellow-Red
color zones that tvfool uses?

Reason: there's a station at -126.4 dB that is a "nice to have".


For my parent's place (ZIP 19963), they currently live with an OTA
NTSC system on a rotor. It looks like as per tvfool that all of their
possible reception will be UHF, and that their closest station is at
-68dB and that most of what they can expect to receive is between
-68dB to -77dB.

I'm assuming that I'll probably go with something like the Channel
Master UHF Multi-Bay Antenna (4228), or Winegard HD-9022 ... but have
no idea what either one's gain is like for selection, as well as if
either style is better suited to the location: they live on Delaware
Bay and the location frequently gets windy. Thus, suggestions are
requested for a UHF that can be expected to work in tvfool's 'Red'
fringe zone (-80dB) that can take wind loads.

TIA,

-hh

In article ,
-hh wrote:
1) In reading tvfool, to determine VHF vs UHF, I should use the
'Real Channel' column to make this determination, correct?

Yes, real channel describes the frequency in use.

2) Is there any risk that some of the big NYC stations might move
their ATSC frequencies back down to their existing VHF frequencies, or
are they now locked in?

The stations are all pretty much locked in to their "tentative post
cutover channel" which isn't necessarily either of their current
channels. In NYC it looks like WPIX-11 will be the only VHS station
after the analog shutoff.

It seems like someone should have all the tentative channel assignments
up on a web page but all I've been able to find are the PDFs on the FCC
website where they frequently publish just the ammendments rather than
the complete current list.

The FCC documents are at:
http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/

The main list is:
5/23/06 Tentative Digital Channel Designations for Stations
Participating in the First and Second Rounds of the DTV Channel
Election Process.
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-06-1082A2.pdf

There are a few updates at:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-06-1675A2.pdf
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...DA-07-20A2.pdf
--
Jim Prescott - Computing and Networking Group
School of Engineering and Applied Sciences, University of Rochester, NY

Jim Prescott wrote:
In article ,
-hh wrote:
1) In reading tvfool, to determine VHF vs UHF, I should use the
'Real Channel' column to make this determination, correct?

Yes, real channel describes the frequency in use.

2) Is there any risk that some of the big NYC stations might move
their ATSC frequencies back down to their existing VHF frequencies, or
are they now locked in?

The stations are all pretty much locked in to their "tentative post
cutover channel" which isn't necessarily either of their current
channels. In NYC it looks like WPIX-11 will be the only VHS station
after the analog shutoff.

Incorrect!!!! Over 600 stations will be changing their digital
broadcast channel prior to or during the analog shutdown in February, 2009.

It seems like someone should have all the tentative channel assignments
up on a web page but all I've been able to find are the PDFs on the FCC
website where they frequently publish just the ammendments rather than
the complete current list.

The FCC documents are at:
http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/

No, three of the stations in NYC will move their digital signal from
UHF to upper VHF by or on February 17, 2009. Check the final digital
channel assignments that was posted on the FCC website in August of
2007. The 3 stations a WABC-DT 7 from UHF 45 to VHF 7, WPIX-DT CW 11
from UHF 33 to VHF 11, and WNET PBS 13 from UHF 61 to VHF 13. Anyone
putting up an antenna in the NYC area (and ALL of the top 20 DMAs for
starters) needs to be able to receive upper VHF 7 to 13 and UHF.

Only 37 full power stations have opted to go to low VHF 2 to 6 in the
post analog era. The most prominent of these by far is WPVI-DT ABC 6 in
Philadelphia on VHF 6. But since most people will only need upper VHF
and UHF coverage, the choices are larger UHF antennas that can pick up
upper VHF (the Channel Master 4228 8 bay being one, the AntennasDirect
DB-8 however is not very good for upper VHF) or a VHF/UHF antrenna.

Winegard has just introduced a new line of upper VHF & UHF antennas,
the HD769xP series which includes the HD7694P, HD7695P, HD7696P,
HD7697P. These are conventional VHF/UHF antennas that are only 35" wide
and should be an easier fit in attics and on roofs than the 110" wide
VHF antennas (110" to cover the long wavelengths of VHF 2). See
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=6508
for a post summarizing the antennas and links to solidsignal.

In a market such as NYC where all the stations are in the same
location, the Winegard HD769xP series should be very useful for the
medium to moderate long range situations.

Alan F

Alan F wrote:
Jim Prescott wrote:
-hh wrote:
1) * In reading tvfool, to determine VHF vs UHF, I should use the
'Real Channel' *column to make this determination, correct?

Yes, real channel describes the frequency in use.

Thanks for this confirmation.


2) *Is there any risk that some of the big NYC stations might move
their ATSC frequencies back down to their existing VHF frequencies, or
are they now locked in?

The stations are all pretty much locked in to their "tentative post
cutover channel" which isn't necessarily either of their current
channels. *In NYC it looks like WPIX-11 will be the only VHS station
after the analog shutoff.

FWIW, tvfool had WPIX-DT listed as 33, which ran contrary to whatever
source Jim was using. I did see one DT station on 'real channel' 8,
but I wasn't personally concerned with receiving that particular
station when I asked my basic VHF/UHF question.


* ... No, three of the stations in NYC will move their digital signal from
UHF to upper VHF by or on February 17, 2009. Check the final digital
channel assignments that was posted on the FCC website in August of
2007. The 3 stations a WABC-DT 7 from UHF 45 to VHF 7, WPIX-DT CW 11
from UHF 33 to VHF 11, and WNET PBS 13 from UHF 61 to VHF 13. Anyone
putting up an antenna in the NYC area (and ALL of the top 20 DMAs for
starters) needs to be able to receive upper VHF 7 to 13 and UHF.

This sounds like what I had apparently vaguely heard somewhere. It
also OBE's my VHF/UHF to UHF-only antenna question...and I'd not be
particularly surprised if it probably applies fairly similarly to my
parents' OTA needs, even though they currently appear to be UHF-only
at the moment (particularly if Philly has Ch6).


Only 37 full power stations have opted to go to low VHF 2 to 6 in the
post analog era.

All it takes is one in any market, although probably the better
question is of the "600 stations" that reportedly are going to
changing allocations, how many of these are 'anywhere' within the VHF
band?

I'd speculate that the majority of them probably are in VHF, which
when a couple hundred stations are spread out nationwide, probably
pretty much obviates the "UHF Only Antenna?" type of question for most
OTA users...



The most prominent of these by far is WPVI-DT ABC 6 in
Philadelphia on VHF 6. But since most people will only need upper VHF
and UHF coverage, the choices are larger UHF antennas that can pick up
upper VHF (the Channel Master 4228 8 bay being one, the AntennasDirect
DB-8 however is not very good for upper VHF) or a VHF/UHF antrenna.

* Winegard has just introduced a new line of upper VHF & UHF antennas,
the HD769xP series which includes the HD7694P, HD7695P, HD7696P,
HD7697P. These are conventional VHF/UHF antennas that are only 35" wide
and should be an easier fit in attics and on roofs than the 110" wide
VHF antennas (110" to cover the long wavelengths of VHF 2). See
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?
p=12788035&postcount=6508
for a post summarizing the antennas and links to solidsignal.

In a market such as NYC where all the stations are in the same
location, the Winegard HD769xP series should be very useful for the
medium to moderate long range situations.

Having narrower VHF elements is an asset for my parent's application
as it will be less susceptible to wind (and wind damage).


-hh

-hh wrote:
Alan F wrote:

FWIW, tvfool had WPIX-DT listed as 33, which ran contrary to whatever
source Jim was using. I did see one DT station on 'real channel' 8,
but I wasn't personally concerned with receiving that particular
station when I asked my basic VHF/UHF question.


... No, three of the stations in NYC will move their digital signal from
UHF to upper VHF by or on February 17, 2009. Check the final digital
channel assignments that was posted on the FCC website in August of
2007. The 3 stations a WABC-DT 7 from UHF 45 to VHF 7, WPIX-DT CW 11
from UHF 33 to VHF 11, and WNET PBS 13 from UHF 61 to VHF 13. Anyone
putting up an antenna in the NYC area (and ALL of the top 20 DMAs for
starters) needs to be able to receive upper VHF 7 to 13 and UHF.

This sounds like what I had apparently vaguely heard somewhere. It
also OBE's my VHF/UHF to UHF-only antenna question...and I'd not be
particularly surprised if it probably applies fairly similarly to my
parents' OTA needs, even though they currently appear to be UHF-only
at the moment (particularly if Philly has Ch6).


Only 37 full power stations have opted to go to low VHF 2 to 6 in the
post analog era.

All it takes is one in any market, although probably the better
question is of the "600 stations" that reportedly are going to
changing allocations, how many of these are 'anywhere' within the VHF
band?

The final digital channel assignment list for the full power stations
shows 37 stations on low VHF and 450 on upper VHF 7 to 13. So there will
be quite a few stations on upper VHF. Checking the current digital
channel assignments, there are 160 stations currently authorized to
broadcast digitally on upper VHF. If my numbers are correct, there are
304 digital stations moving from UHF to VHF.

Yes, the headache for many people will be in the markets where they
got a UHF only antenna (which may work ok for upper VHF), but 1 station
moves from UHF to low VHF. There are 20 stations doing that. In Chicago,
the good news is that WBBM-DT CBS 2 will move from VHF 3 to VHF 12. For
the technically oriented, someone went to the trouble of creating a
detailed spreadsheet listing all the stations by market & call sign at
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12791520.

This list however is only for full power stations. It is likely that
there will be some low power stations moving into low and upper VHF.

I'd speculate that the majority of them probably are in VHF, which
when a couple hundred stations are spread out nationwide, probably
pretty much obviates the "UHF Only Antenna?" type of question for most
OTA users...

Yes. The largest market that will be UHF only is St. Louis, MO, DMA
#21. However, many UHF antennas can work ok for upper VHF 10 to 13, but
not so much for VHF 7.

The most prominent of these by far is WPVI-DT ABC 6 in
Philadelphia on VHF 6. But since most people will only need upper VHF
and UHF coverage, the choices are larger UHF antennas that can pick up
upper VHF (the Channel Master 4228 8 bay being one, the AntennasDirect
DB-8 however is not very good for upper VHF) or a VHF/UHF antrenna.

Winegard has just introduced a new line of upper VHF & UHF antennas,
the HD769xP series which includes the HD7694P, HD7695P, HD7696P,
HD7697P. These are conventional VHF/UHF antennas that are only 35" wide
and should be an easier fit in attics and on roofs than the 110" wide
VHF antennas (110" to cover the long wavelengths of VHF 2). See
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?
p=12788035&postcount=6508
for a post summarizing the antennas and links to solidsignal.

In a market such as NYC where all the stations are in the same
location, the Winegard HD769xP series should be very useful for the
medium to moderate long range situations.

Having narrower VHF elements is an asset for my parent's application
as it will be less susceptible to wind (and wind damage).

True. Only if the deal had been all those years ago to give up low VHF
entirely on go with VHF 7 to UHF 59 (or close to that) for digital TV
broadcasting. But there were stations determined to stay on low VHF for
lower costs and larger area coverage, so the final agreement was VHF 2
to UHF 51. Now in effect, the limit will be 7 to 51 because of
interference problems with low VHF.

Alan F

In article ,
-hh wrote:
Alan F wrote:
Jim Prescott wrote:
2) =A0Is there any risk that some of the big NYC stations might move
their ATSC frequencies back down to their existing VHF frequencies, or
are they now locked in?
The stations are all pretty much locked in to their "tentative post
cutover channel" which isn't necessarily either of their current
channels. =A0In NYC it looks like WPIX-11 will be the only VHS station
after the analog shutoff.
FWIW, tvfool had WPIX-DT listed as 33, which ran contrary to whatever
source Jim was using.

Not contrary at all. Today WPIX is 11 analog and 33 digital. After
the conversion they will be 11 digital. tvfool only tells you about
today.

The post-conversion channels are mostly known at this point. The
post-conversion channel may be one of the two channels currently in use
but it can also be something else. Eg WCBS is currently 2 analog and
56 digital but after the conversion they will be 33 digital.

It would be nice if tvfool had the ability to make a best guess of what
things will look like after the conversion. In addition to many
stations getting new channels, I think many will be changing their
broadcast power.

The FCC publishes the lists of post-conversion channels but not in a
pleasant format. Kudos to Alan for pointing out that Falcon_77 in
avsforum.com has compiled them all into a nice spreadsheet at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12791520

In addition to putting things all into one place the spreadsheet also
makes the markets clearer. With this it is easy to see that in the
NYC market there will be 4 VHF stations after the conversion, only one
of which is currently broadcasing VHF digital.

pretty much obviates the "UHF Only Antenna?" type of question for most

I have family in both Buffalo and Syracuse NY, both of which end up
UHF only. But here in Rochester NBC will be on 10.

=A0 Winegard has just introduced a new line of upper VHF & UHF antennas,
the HD769xP series which includes the HD7694P, HD7695P, HD7696P,
HD7697P. These are conventional VHF/UHF antennas that are only 35" wide
and should be an easier fit in attics and on roofs than the 110" wide
VHF antennas (110" to cover the long wavelengths of VHF 2)

Good to know, they should be much more manageable than a full VHF/UHF
antenna.
--
Jim Prescott - Computing and Networking Group
School of Engineering and Applied Sciences, University of Rochester, NY

On Jan 18, 7:04*pm, Jim Prescott wrote:
In article ,

-hh wrote:
Alan F wrote:
Jim Prescott wrote:
2) =A0Is there any risk that some of the big NYC stations might move
their ATSC frequencies back down to their existing VHF frequencies, or
are they now locked in?
The stations are all pretty much locked in to their "tentative post
cutover channel" which isn't necessarily either of their current
channels. =A0In NYC it looks like WPIX-11 will be the only VHS station
after the analog shutoff.
FWIW, tvfool had WPIX-DT listed as 33, which ran contrary to whatever
source Jim was using.

Not contrary at all. *Today WPIX is 11 analog and 33 digital. *After
the conversion they will be 11 digital. *tvfool only tells you about
today.

Ah, my misinterpretation.


The post-conversion channels are mostly known at this point. *

Apparently so, but not also all that well disseminated.

Cynically, I'd almost suspect that the powers that be are trying to
obfuscate the OTA market because the lack of it really being a money-
maker for a special interest, such as CATV. Afterall, it costs money
to create a Megawatt transmission.



It would be nice if tvfool had the ability to make a best guess of what
things will look like after the conversion. *In addition to many
stations getting new channels, I think many will be changing their
broadcast power.

It would be nice if tvfool simply listed the "after conversion" TV
Channel.


*Kudos to Alan for pointing out that Falcon_77 in
avsforum.com has compiled them all into a nice spreadsheet at:
* *http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12791520

Agreed, although one does have to register at that website in order to
download the file.

In addition to putting things all into one place the spreadsheet also
makes the markets clearer. *With this it is easy to see that in the
NYC market there will be 4 VHF stations after the conversion, only one
of which is currently broadcasing VHF digital.

If I'm following you correctly (and I think I am):

The three of the four that you're referring to are ABC (7), WPIX (11)
and WNET (13), as these are their current VHF-analog channels and
which will become their VHF-digital, but they are currently
transmitting their digital signals on 45, 33 and 61 (UHF),
respectively.

The fourth is WNJB, a PBS station currently on UHF 58 for analog and
who is currently on VHF 8 for digital and will stay there.


pretty much obviates the "UHF Only Antenna?" type of question for most

I have family in both Buffalo and Syracuse NY, both of which end up
UHF only. *But here in Rochester NBC will be on 10.

I think what I overlooked here is that there's VHF Lo and VHF Hi, and
that some antenna designs effectively lump UHF and VHF Hi together.



=A0 Winegard has just introduced a new line of upper VHF & UHF antennas,
the HD769xP series which includes the HD7694P, HD7695P, HD7696P,
HD7697P. These are conventional VHF/UHF antennas that are only 35" wide
and should be an easier fit in attics and on roofs than the 110" wide
VHF antennas (110" to cover the long wavelengths of VHF 2)

Good to know, they should be much more manageable than a full VHF/UHF
antenna.

Especially when 35 ft up on top of my parents roof, on a windy day.
Of course, I might get lucky in that their current antenna works out
OK, but I think its getting fairly old anyway.


-hh

Ant wrote:
On 1/18/2008 4:04 PM PT, Jim Prescott typed:

The FCC publishes the lists of post-conversion channels but not in a
pleasant format. Kudos to Alan for pointing out that Falcon_77 in
avsforum.com has compiled them all into a nice spreadsheet at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12791520

Am I reading this XLS file correctly for Los Angeles, CA that I won't
need to replace my a DB2 bowtie antenna
(http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html )? Currently, I
can get all digital channels fine (sometimes KTLA 5 gives low signals
once in a while and I can't get it or get corruptions). For analog,
channels 2-5 are bad, but everything else are fine (mostly clear).


I don't see any numbers lower than 7 for 2009 DTV channel assignments
(far right column).

Thank you in advance.

Depends on the distance and what the signal strength will be for the
digital upper VHF stations. The Channel Master 4220 should perform
similarly to the CM 4221 4 bay because the bowties are wide enough to
have some gain for upper VHF. But the gain is better for the upper end
of upper VHF, say VHF 10 to 13, with VHF 7 as the lowest gain. See the
chart under "Using a UHF antenna for VHF" at
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html.

The AntennasDirect DB-2 has poorer gain than a pair of rabbit ears set
to a 40" length. But with digital, if the signal is strong enough for
the ATSC tuner to get a solid lock, the antenna is good enough. If you
are relatively close to the huge antenna farm on Mt. Wilson and have a
good line of sight, the DB-2 may be fine. But if not, then maybe all you
need to add a pair of rabbit ears set to 32" to 34" long (optimizing the
length for the wavelengths of upper VHF) and a VHF/UHF antenna combiner.

However, you won't be able to find out until the first station in LA
goes upper VHF after shutting down their digital signal. The FCC in
their massive document on the digital transition process, released
December 31, 2007 (http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/), has set up a process where
stations that need to shut off their analog signal early, before
February 17, 2009, can do so. The station may need to work on the
upper VHF antenna that they will now use for full power digital
broadcast or have to work on the tower. So some stations may shut down
their analog signal a few days or weeks or even several months before
analog shutdown day. The goal is to have all stations, or many as
possible, operating at full power on their digital signal on February
18, 2009.

Alan F

Ant wrote:

There's an updated XLS released yesterday in the same forum thread.


I don't see any numbers lower than 7 for 2009 DTV channel assignments
(far right column).

Still the same for this update.

The update mostly fills in the missing DMA assignments for the
stations, mostly rural or remote, that Falcon_77 left out of the first
version.

Here is an aerial map showing where I am and where the antennae on Mt.
Wilson a http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/7984/mapae8.jpg ...
http://xs222.xs.to/xs222/07500/GE3DaerialmapAndTx.jpg for Google Earth's
3D map and the TX overview map facing north.

According to both antennaweb
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4...ennawebdt8.gif ) and tvfool
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/237/radarallug0.png ) on 12/15/2007,
the stations' antennae are under 20 miles NW of me. The only station
that have issues is KTLA 5 (DTV: 31 for now and 2009) for me. I
sometimes I can't get anything (no signal lockages), weak, or so-so feed
(will cut out and back). I haven't wathced KTLA for a while due to WGA
strike (no new Smallville episodes yet) and Beauty and the Geeks' new
season is still being developed. Note this is for digital feeds.

KTLA-DT CW 5 on UHF 31 appears to be on their final digital channel
assignment at a licensed power of 1000 kW and 954 meters HAAT. I would
not expect any significant improvement for KTLA-DT reception in 2009.
There is KPXN Ion 30 which will shut down it's analog signal on UHF 30
in February, 2009 as KPXN-DT is staying on UHF 38, but that is probably
not the source of your KTLA-DT reception problems.

So basically, I have to wait until the 2/17/2009 to confirm on buying a
new antenna or not. I was hoping the list would be enough. Aren't
all/most stations in L.A. already at max power now? Or are they going to
be even stronger after this date?

I suspect you will need to add rabbit ears and a VHF/UHF combiner in
February, 2009.

Looks like KNBC-DT 4 on UHF 36 will be boosting it's power to 711 kW.
KCBS-DT 2 is moving from UHF 60 to UHF 43, but dropping from 468 kW to
300 kw (taking over the current KCAL-DT digital transmitter?), so it may
get a little poorer coverage. If you want to look the station current
digital power & height and compare it to the ERP and HAAT in the
DTV_Analysis spreadsheet, go to http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html.

Alan F