terminology

"brightside S9" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:50:05 -0000, "mikes"
wrote:

On a partisan note, Thather tore great holes through our social fabric
("No
such thing as Society" i.e. every person for themselves, often (wrongly)
interpreted as "work hard and you'll succeed). In her favour, she took on,
and defeated, the Unions that were becoming far too entwined in the
running
of the country (beer and sandwiches at No 10).

Even now, a generation later she evokes strong feelings.

Oh dear. Read the context in which she said that. It was in an
interview with Woman's Own magazine. Google will find the full text
for you. The above common, out of context, misquote is easily used
to dupe the great unwashed.

--
brightside S9

[People constantly requesting government intervention] "are casting their
problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There
are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can
do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves
first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after
our neighbours."

Yep, not much doubt there.

"mikes" wrote in message
...

[People constantly requesting government intervention] "are casting their
problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society.
There are individual men and women and there are families. And no
government can do anything except through people, and people must look
after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then,
also, to look after our neighbours."

Oh, is that what she actually said? Thanks for that. All she was saying then
is what most of us are saying all the time, that the welfare state mentality
is sapping the will of the feckless and the dim to make any sort of
contribution to their own welfare.

Bill

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...

"mikes" wrote in message
...

[People constantly requesting government intervention] "are casting their
problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society.
There are individual men and women and there are families. And no
government can do anything except through people, and people must look
after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then,
also, to look after our neighbours."

Oh, is that what she actually said? Thanks for that. All she was saying
then is what most of us are saying all the time, that the welfare state
mentality is sapping the will of the feckless and the dim to make any sort
of contribution to their own welfare.

Bill

Presumably the old, sick, weak and infirm are able to look after themselves?

It's down to us (society?) to look after them.

Sermon over.

In article , mikes
scribeth thus

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...

"mikes" wrote in message
...

[People constantly requesting government intervention] "are casting their
problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society.
There are individual men and women and there are families. And no
government can do anything except through people, and people must look
after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then,
also, to look after our neighbours."

Oh, is that what she actually said? Thanks for that. All she was saying
then is what most of us are saying all the time, that the welfare state
mentality is sapping the will of the feckless and the dim to make any sort
of contribution to their own welfare.

Bill

Presumably the old, sick, weak and infirm are able to look after themselves?

It's down to us (society?) to look after them.

Sermon over.


As always this is taken to extremes. There are those who are in genuine
need .. and those who are just lazy, bone idle, and just sponge....
--
Tony Sayer

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:36:21 -0000, "mikes"
wrote:


"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...

"mikes" wrote in message
...

[People constantly requesting government intervention] "are casting their
problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society.
There are individual men and women and there are families. And no
government can do anything except through people, and people must look
after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then,
also, to look after our neighbours."

Oh, is that what she actually said? Thanks for that. All she was saying
then is what most of us are saying all the time, that the welfare state
mentality is sapping the will of the feckless and the dim to make any sort
of contribution to their own welfare.

Bill

Presumably the old, sick, weak and infirm are able to look after themselves?

It's down to us (society?) to look after them.

Sermon over.

I don;t think Bill mentioned the old, sick, weak and infirm - he did
however mention the the feckless and the dim - much like the "Feral"
youths mentioned in the press today - you know the ones I mean -
thiose that kicked that father to death while high on drink and drugs,
probably best you find something better to do than pontificate via
"sermons"
--
Cheers

Peter

"PeterT" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:36:21 -0000, "mikes"
wrote:


"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...

"mikes" wrote in message
...

[People constantly requesting government intervention] "are casting
their
problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society.
There are individual men and women and there are families. And no
government can do anything except through people, and people must look
after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and
then,
also, to look after our neighbours."

Oh, is that what she actually said? Thanks for that. All she was saying
then is what most of us are saying all the time, that the welfare state
mentality is sapping the will of the feckless and the dim to make any
sort
of contribution to their own welfare.

Bill

Presumably the old, sick, weak and infirm are able to look after
themselves?

It's down to us (society?) to look after them.

Sermon over.

I don;t think Bill mentioned the old, sick, weak and infirm - he did
however mention the the feckless and the dim - much like the "Feral"
youths mentioned in the press today - you know the ones I mean -
thiose that kicked that father to death while high on drink and drugs,
probably best you find something better to do than pontificate via
"sermons"
--
Cheers

Peter

.... the lost art of irony...

I wasn't ACTUALLY preaching!

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 00:16:12 -0000, "Bill Wright"
wrote:


"Marky P" wrote in message
.. .
If that was a bird, it's a bloody ugly one. He's got Tony Blair's
mouth.

Marky, there was only one man on that picture. He was pouring beer over his
own head. There was a woman at the very edge of the picture. There was
no-one else.

Bill

I'm telling you, that's not a woman. It's Tony Blair! If I had his
email address, I'd send it to him for confimation.

Marky P.

"mikes" wrote in message
...

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...

"mikes" wrote in message
...

[People constantly requesting government intervention] "are casting
their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as
society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And
no government can do anything except through people, and people must
look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and
then, also, to look after our neighbours."

Oh, is that what she actually said? Thanks for that. All she was saying
then is what most of us are saying all the time, that the welfare state
mentality is sapping the will of the feckless and the dim to make any
sort of contribution to their own welfare.

Bill

Presumably the old, sick, weak and infirm are able to look after
themselves?

It's down to us (society?) to look after them.

No, what she said was, "It is our duty to look after ourselves and then,
also, to look after our neighbours." In other words, we should make
every effort to stand up for ourselves, but then as a safety net we must
look after everyone else, and everyone else must look after us. This
isn't a denial of social security, it's an assertion of personal
endeavor. What she was moaning about were the people who turn to the
state for every damned thing, and don't make any effort to look after
their own. Look, I encounter a lot of these people. Able bodied men and
women living rent free with their families, the house a total **** tip
because they can't be arsed to use a bit of Flash and some hot water.
What money they have they waste on fags and Sky. They could perfectly
well go out and get a job but they don't because they have the mentality
that since the state will provide, why should they bother? They moan
when the TV system goes down as if they have personally paid a lot of
money for the service, and treat me and other workers like ****. I've
knocked on so many doors to ask if the repair has been successful and
been greeted with, "Yeah, it's back on. 'Bout ****in' time!" And 90% of
the time the fault was caused by vandalism or theft, done by their
out-of-control kids.

No decent person would quarrel with a system that looks after those who are
in genuine need, because this is after all one of the main tenets of the
Christian religion on which our mainstream morality is based and it is also
a basic human instinct, but the present system whereby we effectively allow
and even encourage a subclass of malingerers to exist is totally
unacceptable to those of us who work hard and receive little or no help from
the state.

Bill

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...

"mikes" wrote in message
...

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...

"mikes" wrote in message
...

[People constantly requesting government intervention] "are casting
their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as
society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And
no government can do anything except through people, and people must
look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and
then, also, to look after our neighbours."

Oh, is that what she actually said? Thanks for that. All she was saying
then is what most of us are saying all the time, that the welfare state
mentality is sapping the will of the feckless and the dim to make any
sort of contribution to their own welfare.

Bill

Presumably the old, sick, weak and infirm are able to look after
themselves?

It's down to us (society?) to look after them.

No, what she said was, "It is our duty to look after ourselves and then,
also, to look after our neighbours." In other words, we should make
every effort to stand up for ourselves, but then as a safety net we
must look after everyone else, and everyone else must look after us.
This isn't a denial of social security, it's an assertion of personal
endeavor. What she was moaning about were the people who turn to the
state for every damned thing, and don't make any effort to look after
their own. Look, I encounter a lot of these people. Able bodied men and
women living rent free with their families, the house a total **** tip
because they can't be arsed to use a bit of Flash and some hot water.
What money they have they waste on fags and Sky. They could perfectly
well go out and get a job but they don't because they have the
mentality that since the state will provide, why should they bother?
They moan when the TV system goes down as if they have personally paid
a lot of money for the service, and treat me and other workers like
****. I've knocked on so many doors to ask if the repair has been
successful and been greeted with, "Yeah, it's back on. 'Bout ****in'
time!" And 90% of the time the fault was caused by vandalism or theft,
done by their out-of-control kids.

No decent person would quarrel with a system that looks after those who
are in genuine need, because this is after all one of the main tenets of
the Christian religion on which our mainstream morality is based and it is
also a basic human instinct, but the present system whereby we effectively
allow and even encourage a subclass of malingerers to exist is totally
unacceptable to those of us who work hard and receive little or no help
from the state.

Bill


She said it three times in the same paragraph

1) "there's no such thing as society"
2) " people must look after themselves first"
3) "It is our duty to look after ourselves and then..."

I'm quite able to interpret it for myself thanks.

The seeds of our me-first society were sown by Mrs Thatcher and we are still
feeling the effects.

The points about malingerers and lazy sods I concur with wholly, but the
discussion centred on the causes of our present social malaise - Thatcher.

"mikes" wrote in message
...
The seeds of our me-first society were sown by Mrs Thatcher and we are
still feeling the effects.

But me (and mine) first is the way it works. That's what we all do. That's
why income tax is organised so that the poor pay less, so they can look
after themselves. Socialism is OK as long as it's built on a sound
capitalist base, which pays for it. Once you take away people's incentive
the system fails, as in all communist experiments. Human beings are
programed to think about themselves and their families first. You can't
change human nature. Lots of people have tried and failed.


The points about malingerers and lazy sods I concur with wholly, but the
discussion centred on the causes of our present social malaise - Thatcher.

If Thatcher hadn't stepped in we would have continued going down the pan,
and by now we would be like Bulgaria or somewhere, instead of one of world's
richest countries.

Bill