Audio Sync disaster

I have a Magnavox LCD HDTV, a Phillips
HTS3544 5.1 system, and Toshiba A-3 HD DVD player. I have the audio
from the HD DVD ran to the Surround System (HTS3544) via a Optical to
Coax converter. this is the only way to get 5.1 since the DVD player
has optical out and Surround system has only coax digital in. So the
lip this is a bit of a problem. I have tried several things to remedy
the problem. First i had the HDMI cable and Optical connected, but the
surround does not have an HDMI in so it went directly to the TV. Then
i tried just RGB cables and no go. I did an update on the firmware for
both the HD DVD and Surround and it seemed to corect the problem but
it is still a bit off. IT AGGRAVATES THE **** OUT OF ME!
I have been looking at the Onkyo 605 reciever and hope that it could
be a fix for the problem, like the above poster mention the HDMI cable
sends the sound and video perfectly. I have experience the syncro when
i turn the tv up like he said but you whats to listed two your HD
Movie in stereo. I just need $389 bucks so i can get it. IF any knows
of a cheaper fix holler

On Dec 26, 2:45*am, " wrote:
I have a Magnavox LCD HDTV, a Phillips
HTS3544 5.1 system, and Toshiba A-3 HD DVD player. I have the audio
from the HD DVD ran to the Surround System (HTS3544) via a Optical to
Coax converter. this is the only way to get 5.1 since the DVD player
has optical out and Surround system has only coax digital in. So the
lip this is a bit of a problem. I have tried several things to remedy
the problem. First i had the HDMI cable and Optical connected, but the
surround does not have an HDMI in so it went directly to the TV. Then
i tried just RGB cables and no go. I did an update on the firmware for
both the HD DVD and Surround and it seemed to corect the problem but
it is still a bit off. IT AGGRAVATES THE **** OUT OF ME!
I have been looking at the Onkyo 605 reciever and hope that it could
be a fix for the problem, like the above poster mention the HDMI cable
sends the sound and video perfectly. I have experience the syncro when
i turn the tv up like he said but you whats to listed two your HD
Movie in stereo. I just need $389 bucks so i can get it. IF any knows
of a cheaper fix holler

Interesting. Are you sure the optical--co-axial converter is the
problem? My surround sound receiver (an early Onkyo 500) has two
optical and one co-axial input. I have three sources: from the TV
(for OTA 5.1 broadcasts), from my HD-DVR, and from my DVD player. I
run the DVD player output through the converter, but I have never had
a lip sync problem with a DVD. I do occaisionally get lip sync issues
with broadcasts, but that seems to be a problem with the broadcast,
not my equipment. Fortunately, broadcasts are getting better and
better, and lip sync issues are happening more and more infrequently.

Dan (Woj...)

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:16:00 -0800 (PST), dmaster
wrote:

On Dec 26, 2:45*am, " wrote:
I have a Magnavox LCD HDTV, a Phillips
HTS3544 5.1 system, and Toshiba A-3 HD DVD player. I have the audio
from the HD DVD ran to the Surround System (HTS3544) via a Optical to
Coax converter. this is the only way to get 5.1 since the DVD player
has optical out and Surround system has only coax digital in. So the
lip this is a bit of a problem. I have tried several things to remedy
the problem. First i had the HDMI cable and Optical connected, but the
surround does not have an HDMI in so it went directly to the TV. Then
i tried just RGB cables and no go. I did an update on the firmware for
both the HD DVD and Surround and it seemed to corect the problem but
it is still a bit off. IT AGGRAVATES THE **** OUT OF ME!
I have been looking at the Onkyo 605 reciever and hope that it could
be a fix for the problem, like the above poster mention the HDMI cable
sends the sound and video perfectly. I have experience the syncro when
i turn the tv up like he said but you whats to listed two your HD
Movie in stereo. I just need $389 bucks so i can get it. IF any knows
of a cheaper fix holler

Interesting. Are you sure the optical--co-axial converter is the
problem? ...

I'm pretty sure the converter is not the problem.
Normally the TV, delays the video and causes the sync problem.
Therefore, the audio needs a similar delay.

Then there are also bad syncronisation in the material and also from
some equipment.

My surround sound receiver (an early Onkyo 500) has two
optical and one co-axial input. I have three sources: from the TV
(for OTA 5.1 broadcasts), from my HD-DVR, and from my DVD player. I
run the DVD player output through the converter, but I have never had
a lip sync problem with a DVD. I do occaisionally get lip sync issues
with broadcasts, but that seems to be a problem with the broadcast,
not my equipment. Fortunately, broadcasts are getting better and
better, and lip sync issues are happening more and more infrequently.

Dan (Woj...)

Still room for improvement ...
/Jan

On Dec 26, 1:45*am, " wrote:
I have a Magnavox LCD HDTV, a Phillips
HTS3544 5.1 system, and Toshiba A-3 HD DVD player. I have the audio
from the HD DVD ran to the Surround System (HTS3544) via a Optical to
Coax converter. this is the only way to get 5.1 since the DVD player
has optical out and Surround system has only coax digital in. So the
lip this is a bit of a problem. I have tried several things to remedy
the problem. First i had the HDMI cable and Optical connected, but the
surround does not have an HDMI in so it went directly to the TV. Then
i tried just RGB cables and no go. I did an update on the firmware for
both the HD DVD and Surround and it seemed to corect the problem but
it is still a bit off. IT AGGRAVATES THE **** OUT OF ME!
I have been looking at the Onkyo 605 reciever and hope that it could
be a fix for the problem, like the above poster mention the HDMI cable
sends the sound and video perfectly. I have experience the syncro when
i turn the tv up like he said but you whats to listed two your HD
Movie in stereo. I just need $389 bucks so i can get it. IF any knows
of a cheaper fix holler

I use:

http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Optica...88549&sr =8-1

to convert from DISH network DVR to a panasonic receiver since I only
have one TOSLink input on the receiver and one coax. I do not have
lip synch problems. You can get these cheaper elsewhere and for $10-
$12 it would eliminate the converter.

HTH,

Derek

Lip-sync error comes and goes and its off in both directions - both
the usual "audio ahead of video" exacerbated by the video delay caused
by image processing in modern displays (LCD, DLP, plasma, etc.)
Sometimes it can even be perfect so it is basically impossible to
compare any kind of lip-sync problem caused by equipment at different
times using a broadcast source. It is usually not the equipment at
all. It definitely won't be the coax/optical converter as that causes
no delay at all.

I use a Felston DD740 to correct lip-sync and adjust it at the start
of each new program and DVD we watch and my settings vary from a low
of 21 ms to a high of 131 ms for the shows we watch this season. This
is far worse than it was last season - far more variation is what I
mean.

Since my non-HD display (soon to be replaced with HD which I know will
have even greater delay) contributes a fixed video delay of about 60
ms this means my arriving signals vary from audio being "delayed" by
39 ms to audio being ahead of video by 71 ms.

That is, when audio is already delayed 39 ms in the arriving signal my
21 ms setting on my DD740 means my display's video delay is actually
beneficial in correcting for the arriving audio delay with 39 ms of
that 60 ms video delay cancelling the audio delay and the Felston
DD740 is only having to add 21 ms of audio delay to cancel the
remaining 21 ms of video delay from my plasma display.

Likewise when the audio arrives 71 ms ahead of the video my plasma
display's 60 ms delay boosts the total lip-sync error to 131 ms and my
DD740 adds 131 ms of audio delay to correct it.

A few programs we watch actually arrive very close to in-sync
requiring only about 60 ms of delay from the Dd740 to cancel the video
delay caused by my display but that's fairly rare. In those cases my
A/V receiver's fixed audio delay could correct it but I leave it set
to zero and use the DD740 so I can get the benefit of my display's
videu delay when the audio arrives delayed.

A DVD would be a better way to compare lip-sync error but they even
vary quite a bit depending upon their post production and encoding.
Recently I was watching Denzel Washngton's INSIDE MAN and perfect sync
occurred with only 20 ms delay from my DD740 which means that
particular DVD had audio delayed by 40 ms.

I keep a log of the delay setting for each TV program we watch so I
have a good starting point for the following week's episode and I find
they vary very little from week to week - perhaps only a few ms - so
most of these lip-sync errors in the arriving signals seem to be
consistent and due to the post production of the show or network
differences but even on the same network we sometimes see variations
between programs of over 70 ms so referring to a log saves a lot of
adjustment and the DD740 has direct numeric delay entry in addition to
its + and - buttons so I just type in the delay - say 121 ms - from
the log and tweak a little with the + and - buttons as the program
progresses if needed.

Fine tuning the DD740 for these random variations in lip-sync without
overlaying what I'm watching with menus makes adjusting for lip-sync
possible since I find it often requires tweaking well into the
program depending on when the scenes with a view of the lips occur -
and stay there long enough for me to make a change and see if it
helped.

I know when it's off and I can tell when it is perfect so I start in
one direction and go up or down pressing the + or - buttons until it
looks perfect and if it gets worse then I reverse direction until it
looks perfect but I can't look at it and tell wheich way to go.

Is it worth the trouble? I have friends who don't think so but this
is definitely a case of "what you don't know CAN hurt you" in my
opinion. I say that because research at Stanford University proved
even viewers who don't consciously notice lip-sync error still
experience its negative impact and feel the characters are more
anxious, less successful, less persuasive, etc.

That means lip-sync error is undermining the very essence of cinema
itself - our impression of the characters. This is "science" not
"fiction" from Stanford University and considering all the other
things we do in home cinema to guarantee realism and an immersive
environment it amazes me that so little attention has been devoted to
this total contradiction of reality.

Lip sync error is not possible in the real world - there is no
physical phenomenon that can cause it - so our brains apparently cause
us to subconsciously avoid it by looking away from the faces of the
characters and that apparently causes the subconscious negative impact
documented at Stanford.

That' another reason lip-sync error is hard to compare on a forum.
Even if both members are looking at the same lip-sync error one may
still have his avoidance mechanism intact and really isn't looking
directly at the lips while the other's may have been erased and he
sees it.

Usually once lip-sync error exceeds an individual's threshold of
recognition - that is, it reaches a magnitude he can no longer ignore
by looking away - he notices it and begins looking at the lips and he
will then see mucvh smaller lip-sync error becausae his avoidance
mechanism is no longer masking it.

If you will force yourself to really look at the lips you will see
it. Some people don't notice it after adding a fixed delay to cancel
the video delay of their display since that may reduce it to a level
they can avoid by looking askance but it can still be seen if you
really look at the lips.

The Stanford research proved that even 41 ms of leading audio (which
most people don't notice) caused the negative impact on perception.
In my system if I only corrected for the fixed delay of 60 ms of my
display (like my A/V receiver could do) and did not adjust my Dd740
for perfect sync at the start of each program and DVD I would
experience audio leading by 71 ms to audio lagging by 39 ms and even
if I did not consciously notice it the negative impact would still be
there according to the Stanford research.

So to my friends who say "what they don't notice won't hurt them" and
who are content not to look for lip-sync error and correct it I ask
why they do all the other insane things to insure their home cinemas
are the most realistic and immersive environments possible - most of
which have absolutely no scientific basis whatsoever. There's no
research like Stanfords' on lip-sync to prove any human can ever hear
the effect of most of these hyped up products much less whether it
would have any impact if they could. I'm talking about the giant
speaker cables and other snake oil they all have but yet they seem
content to allow their home cinema to be the most un-realistic spot on
the planet - a place where sound comes before the event that creates
the sound!

I have one friend who says he spent $200 on his speaker caables -
more than my Dd740 cost - and most of us now know any cable above 18
guage isn't going to improve the sound at all. That particular friend
also spent "hours" aligning his speakers to insure the sound from each
one impinges upon his ears at precisely the same instant - within ONE
ms of each other - but he seems content to alow the whole sound
package to arrive 60 ms before he sees the event that created the
sound.

And what's even more amazing is that he tninks he has a "totally
immersice home cinema". He's hearing sounds before they happen -
totally out of sync - but because his avoidance mechansim masks them
he won't even acknowledge the problem.

If you are interested in the Stanfrod research here's a link:

Since the link did not post here it is again:

Link to the Stanford research:
http://www.pixelinstruments.tv/pdf/A...Asynchrony.PDF