OTA DTV hits ONE%

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, NadCixelsyd wrote:
I have mentioned these possibilities many times.
Bob Miller
No, you did not answer my question: What do you want me (or anyone
else on this forum) to do about it?

He wants you to give up on OTA, so that he can buy the bandwidth to
broadcast tampon commercials on city buses.

HDTV was a devastating blow to his business plans.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

He wants you to give up on OTA, so that he can buy the bandwidth to
broadcast tampon commercials on city buses.

HDTV was a devastating blow to his business plans.

-- Mark --

Not likely. I enjoy free HD television.

If OTA is such a waste of bandwitdh, why do I have 8 stations within 6
miles of my house to satisfy just (as Bob claims) one%?

When cable was introduced to my community back in the early 80s, it
was $12 a month. With inflation, that should be under $25, but the
cable companies took the Michael Eisner approach: Raise the rates $2
every year. When I dumped cable last year, it was over $60 a month
without any premium services.

I thought his complaint was COFDM v. 8-VSB (which I know nothing
about). But even if I did, there's nothing I can do about it.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2007, 5:57am (Bob*Miller) wrote:

There never has been so blatant a conflict of interest
than broadcasters conflict with the free spectrum
they own which requires them to deliver a free OTA
service and the must carry laws that allow them
access to their competitors, cable and satellite,
networks.

Don't most broadcasters make their money by selling advertising? The
more people who receive their signal, the more they can charge for that
advertising.

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, NadCixelsyd wrote:
Not likely. I enjoy free HD television.

So do lots of other people, myself included.

If OTA is such a waste of bandwitdh, why do I have 8 stations within 6
miles of my house to satisfy just (as Bob claims) one%?

OTA is not a waste of bandwidth; only Bob Miller claims otherwise. He
openly admits that his intent is to spread FUD to discourage people from
using OTA. It's the only chance he has of killing it.

I thought his complaint was COFDM v. 8-VSB (which I know nothing
about). But even if I did, there's nothing I can do about it.

8-VSB and COFDM are modulations.

COFDM modulation has somewhat better moving receiver reception and
multipath performance, especially with older technology, than 8-VSB.
However, this is at a cost of a much smaller service area at any given
level of power (put another way, 8-VSB can be received much further away
than COFDM).

8-VSB is also capable of encoding more into the 6MHz channel space used in
North America (and Japan) than COFDM.

For COFDM, I am most familiar with the Japanese system. This system
allows 1 HD stream OR 3 SD streams, plus a low-resolution (320x240) stream
for mobile devices (called 1seg), per channel.

8-VSB allows 1 HD stream and up to 3 SD streams, OR up to 5 (some say 6)
SD streams, per channel. There are various 1seg equivalents.

Note that in both systems, the regular HD and SD channels are intended for
fixed receiver viewing. For the most part, mobile devices (bitty screens
such as cell phones or handheld TVs) receiving special mobile device
subchannels and do NOT receive the regular channels.

1seg went live in 2006 in Japan. Its performance is underwhelming. I
found that in a car (as a passenger!) or a train that it would not hold
lock on a signal for long while the vehicle was in motion.

More to the point, I found that a USB tuner dongle, with a 5" rod antenna,
plugged into a UMPC performed just about as well with 8-VSB in the USA as
1seg did in Japan. The biggest issue was that the tuner was receiving an
1080i HD signal and a UMPC at 1.2GHz is a bit underpowered for that task.
1seg in Japan only has to process 320x240 or more commonly 320x180 (most
Japanese broadcasts are widescreen).

COFDM is probably a better choice in small, densely populated countries
such as Japan (and much of Europe) where most people are less than 20
miles from their TV broadcasters. 8-VSB is the better choice in North
America which is much less densely populated, and broadcasters have to
cover a huge service area.

Bob Miller wagered that the USA would adopt COFDM, and invested heavily in
COFDM technology that became useless when the FCC choose 8-VSB instead.
What's more, he can't even resell his COFDM equipment since it's now
obsolete by the standards of what COFDM countries use.

So now he is engaged in a bitter, angry, lonely campaign of FUD against
8-VSB and HDTV (which he blames for the choice of 8-VSB). He doesn't have
much hope to gain anything from it. It's just his petty little way of
getting revenge.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Mark Crispin wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, NadCixelsyd wrote:
Not likely. I enjoy free HD television.

So do lots of other people, myself included.

If OTA is such a waste of bandwitdh, why do I have 8 stations within 6
miles of my house to satisfy just (as Bob claims) one%?

OTA is not a waste of bandwidth; only Bob Miller claims otherwise. He
openly admits that his intent is to spread FUD to discourage people from
using OTA. It's the only chance he has of killing it.

I agree OTA is not a waste of bandwidth. OTA as I have said many times
not only is not a waste of bandwidth but is capable of being competitive
with cable and satellite.

The problem in the US is that OTA is being used wrong and its full
potential is being WASTED. In other countries OTA is enjoying a rebirth
of incredible proportions. In the UK 75% of homes will have an OTA
receiver by Christmas that they actually use. In the US the number of
households using OTA is ONE%

That is an incredible WASTE of OTA DTV.

In the US broadcasters and retailers have not been promoting OTA DTV for
the last 10 years. In only a few years other countries have seen massive
uptake of OTA DTV with the FULL involvement of enthusiastic
broadcasters, consumer electronic manufacturers and retailers.

I thought his complaint was COFDM v. 8-VSB (which I know nothing
about). But even if I did, there's nothing I can do about it.

Sure there is. You live in a democracy and you can do something about
it. To the extent that you don't think you can do something about it you
voluntarily relinquish your democracy.

8-VSB and COFDM are modulations.

COFDM modulation has somewhat better moving receiver reception and
multipath performance, especially with older technology, than 8-VSB.
However, this is at a cost of a much smaller service area at any given
level of power (put another way, 8-VSB can be received much further away
than COFDM).

COFDM based modulation service a larger area at the same power as 8-VSB
and work far better at any point in the service area mobile or fixed.

8-VSB is also capable of encoding more into the 6MHz channel space used
in North America (and Japan) than COFDM.

DVB-T is capable of delivering more data than 8-VSB in a 6 MHz channel
and doing it mobile. In Congressional hearings in 2000 DVB-T COFDM
delivered 1080i HDTV at 19.76 Mbps while 8-VSB was limited to 19.34 Mbps
and the COFDM antenna was moved around the hearing room while receiving.
The 8-VSB antenna was a directional one that was more expensive and
could not be moved.

For COFDM, I am most familiar with the Japanese system. This system
allows 1 HD stream OR 3 SD streams, plus a low-resolution (320x240)
stream for mobile devices (called 1seg), per channel.

8-VSB allows 1 HD stream and up to 3 SD streams, OR up to 5 (some say 6)
SD streams, per channel. There are various 1seg equivalents.

Note that in both systems, the regular HD and SD channels are intended
for fixed receiver viewing. For the most part, mobile devices (bitty
screens such as cell phones or handheld TVs) receiving special mobile
device subchannels and do NOT receive the regular channels.

1seg went live in 2006 in Japan. Its performance is underwhelming. I
found that in a car (as a passenger!) or a train that it would not hold
lock on a signal for long while the vehicle was in motion.

More to the point, I found that a USB tuner dongle, with a 5" rod
antenna, plugged into a UMPC performed just about as well with 8-VSB in
the USA as 1seg did in Japan. The biggest issue was that the tuner was
receiving an 1080i HD signal and a UMPC at 1.2GHz is a bit underpowered
for that task. 1seg in Japan only has to process 320x240 or more
commonly 320x180 (most Japanese broadcasts are widescreen).

COFDM is probably a better choice in small, densely populated countries
such as Japan (and much of Europe) where most people are less than 20
miles from their TV broadcasters. 8-VSB is the better choice in North
America which is much less densely populated, and broadcasters have to
cover a huge service area.

The Japanese ISDB-T, the Chinese DTMB or the European DVB-T are far
superior to 8-VSB. Any country in the world that tested the two openly
and fairly choose one of the COFDM based modulations.

Bob Miller wagered that the USA would adopt COFDM, and invested heavily
in COFDM technology that became useless when the FCC choose 8-VSB
instead. What's more, he can't even resell his COFDM equipment since
it's now obsolete by the standards of what COFDM countries use.

So now he is engaged in a bitter, angry, lonely campaign of FUD against
8-VSB and HDTV (which he blames for the choice of 8-VSB). He doesn't
have much hope to gain anything from it. It's just his petty little way
of getting revenge.

I did not invest anything based on using COFDM in the US on channels
below 51 that broadcasters own. We did invest in channels that can use
COFDM above 51 specifically 54 and 59. Since broadcasters still squat on
those channels we can not use them yet. We have to wait till 2009 when
analog is turned off.

A few weeks ago AT&T bought 281 licenses for Channels 54 and 59 from
Aloha Partners. Aloha paid under $100 million for those licenses and
sold them for $2.5 billion. $2.5 billion was a steal in my opinion.

We still own our licenses which represent most of our investment so far.
We are not losing any money. FCC Auction 72 in January will give a more
accurate value for this spectrum ALL of which can be used with, will be
used with, COFDM based modulations.

Don't expect to see anyone in the world that has not chosen a modulation
chose 8-VSB or even look at it. 8-VSB is dead. It is only a matter of
time before Congress and the FCC notice just how dead it is.

A full power TV/DTV station in Tyler TX sold for $25 million a few weeks
ago. It has a population coverage of 100,000. One of our licenses has a
coverage of 825,000 with a far better demographic and we have both 54
and 59 both of which will work very well mobile and fixed. The $25
million is probably based on one HDTV program and maybe a weather
channel delivered to some portion of 100,000 people or 25,000 homes.

What might two channels using MPEG4 to deliver HD and ED programing, 8
to 18 program channels, to everyone anywhere moving or standing still,
in your home or on your boat be worth? And that to not to 25,000 homes
but to 825,000 people all of whom could have receive devices in their
car, boat, home, lap top, cell phone, back yard etc.?

Bob Miller

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Lots of good reasons for OTA. So why are broadcasters not telling the
public about them?

Because Bob, nobody ****ing needs to watch TV over the air. I don't
know one person that doesn't have cable or satellite, HD or not.

Larry Bud wrote:
Lots of good reasons for OTA. So why are broadcasters not telling the
public about them?

Because Bob, nobody ****ing needs to watch TV over the air. I don't
know one person that doesn't have cable or satellite, HD or not.

Sounds like you agree with me that free OTA is dead.

Bob Miller

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:52:02 -0800, Larry Bud wrote:

Lots of good reasons for OTA. So why are broadcasters not telling the
public about them?

Because Bob, nobody ****ing needs to watch TV over the air. I don't
know one person that doesn't have cable or satellite, HD or not.

Well, now you do. I've never had cable or sat. I get about 40 digital
stations perfectly clear. With ntsc, I got about half that many and many
of them had picture problems. Especially the ones in the lower vhf range.
It's my contention that nobody needs cable or pay satellite TV either. and
it's really dumb to pay for SDTV when OTA is free and HD. But many people
think that's the only way they can get quality TV. That was pretty much
true with NTSC, but ATSC (8vsb) is actually better than the others now.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
My Tivo Experience http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/tivo.htm
Tivo HD/S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
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On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:02:40 -0500, Bob Miller wrote:

Larry Bud wrote:
Lots of good reasons for OTA. So why are broadcasters not telling the
public about them?

Because Bob, nobody ****ing needs to watch TV over the air. I don't
know one person that doesn't have cable or satellite, HD or not.

Sounds like you agree with me that free OTA is dead.

The only thing dead are most of the cells in your brain, and of course
your choice of codfm or whatever the hell it's called. At least as for as
the ATSC is concerned.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
My Tivo Experience http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/tivo.htm
Tivo HD/S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
AMD cpu help http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php

Sounds like you agree with me that free OTA is dead.

Bob Miller

What about me, Bob. All my TV is OTA, digital, ATSC, 8VSB, and I LOVE
IT because it's FREE. I don't even have a VHF antenna. Yes, I would
appreciate having more channels, but I'm unwilling to pay $800 per
year. The 8 ATSC stations within 50 miles of my house are quite
adequate (19 if you include duplicate network affiliations, shopping
channels and foreign language stations which I exclude.)

I've asked you many times, but you ignore the question. ATSC is the
law, so what do you expect me to do about it? Do you expect me to
give up my FREE television?

And why does my local NBC/ABC/FOX/CBS/CW/PBS affiliate broadcast ATSC
if only 1% are watching it? What's their motivation? Surely, my
cable company would carry those stations even without the "must carry"
rule.