Agamemnon's guide to MPEG-4 encoding part 3 or whatever.

"The Doctor" wrote in message
...

You are the one who needs to tell me. Where are your ancestors going that
lived before Christ? To Hell?

If they were not Jews.

Idiot. Christians believe that everyone went to hell before Jesus, and since
Jesus, everyone who fails to accept Jesus as their lord and master goes to
hell.

Jews do not accept Jesus as their saviour. Jews don't have the same idea of
hell as Christians. So if you're Christian, you think all non-Christians go
to hell. That includes Jews.

Stephen Wilson wrote:
"The Doctor" wrote in message
...

You are the one who needs to tell me. Where are your ancestors
going that lived before Christ? To Hell?

If they were not Jews.

Idiot. Christians believe that everyone went to hell before Jesus,
and since Jesus, everyone who fails to accept Jesus as their lord and
master goes to hell.

*Some* Christians believe that. Many don't.

Jews do not accept Jesus as their saviour. Jews don't have the same
idea of hell as Christians. So if you're Christian, you think all
non-Christians go to hell. That includes Jews.

Please don't generalise about what Christians believe. Even a
moderate amount of research would show you that you are
mistaken.

Diane L.

"Diane L." wrote in message
...
Stephen Wilson wrote:
"The Doctor" wrote in message
...

You are the one who needs to tell me. Where are your ancestors
going that lived before Christ? To Hell?

If they were not Jews.

Idiot. Christians believe that everyone went to hell before Jesus,
and since Jesus, everyone who fails to accept Jesus as their lord and
master goes to hell.

*Some* Christians believe that. Many don't.

Jews do not accept Jesus as their saviour. Jews don't have the same
idea of hell as Christians. So if you're Christian, you think all
non-Christians go to hell. That includes Jews.

Please don't generalise about what Christians believe. Even a
moderate amount of research would show you that you are
mistaken.

I've done a moderate amount of research. I've found very few Christians,
both in real life and on the internet, who are prepared to accept that
anyone who doesn't worship Jesus will not face eternal damnation. I'm glad
you're not one of them, but in my experience, your view is (sadly) in the
minority.

Here's a very random website:
http://christdot.org/modules.php?nam...ticle&sid=5915
Summarised in one sentence: "Scripture is clear in several spots that only
way to the Father is through Jesus."

Another random site: http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/heaven.shtml
Summarised in these sentences: "If none of these are correct, who gets to go
to heaven?" you may ask. The answer is simple. The people who get to go to
heaven are the ones who "get right with God" by beginning a relationship
with Him through His Son Jesus Christ. "

From the New York Times: "The Rev. Richard A. Rhem has been branded a
heretic by his own Protestant denomination, the Reformed Church in America,
for suggesting that faith in Jesus is not the only path to heaven."

From http://www.helium.com/tm/604449/answ...eaven-actually
"The answer to the question, "Who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?", is
actually very, very simple. There is but one way to Heaven, according to the
Scriptures. It is Jesus Christ.
Anyone who rejects the Lord Jesus Christ and does not believe on Him and His
sacrifice will go to hell. It does not matter how much "good" they may do.
"Goodness" and "good deeds" do not buy entrance into Heaven."



Etc. etc. etc.

Stephen Wilson wrote:
"Diane L." wrote in message
...
Stephen Wilson wrote:
"The Doctor" wrote in message
...

You are the one who needs to tell me. Where are your ancestors
going that lived before Christ? To Hell?

If they were not Jews.

Idiot. Christians believe that everyone went to hell before Jesus,
and since Jesus, everyone who fails to accept Jesus as their lord
and master goes to hell.

*Some* Christians believe that. Many don't.

Jews do not accept Jesus as their saviour. Jews don't have the same
idea of hell as Christians. So if you're Christian, you think all
non-Christians go to hell. That includes Jews.

Please don't generalise about what Christians believe. Even a
moderate amount of research would show you that you are
mistaken.

I've done a moderate amount of research. I've found very few
Christians, both in real life and on the internet, who are prepared
to accept that anyone who doesn't worship Jesus will not face eternal
damnation. I'm glad you're not one of them, but in my experience,
your view is (sadly) in the minority.

The Church of England doesn't really believe in Hell anymore
http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1996/01/31/ (I can't find
direct link to the report in question, but this gives a summary).

The Catholic Church still believes in Hell, but has a somewhat
hazy idea of who goes there. "Those who, through no fault of
their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but
who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved
by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it
through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve
eternal salvation." and ""The plan of salvation also includes
those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst
whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,
and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's
judge on the last day."
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm


Here's a very random website:
http://christdot.org/modules.php?nam...ticle&sid=5915
Summarised in one sentence: "Scripture is clear in several spots that
only way to the Father is through Jesus."

Did you read the discussion on that page, or just the first message?
There are several posts from Christians who *don't* believe that any
non-Christian goes to Hell (and several posts from Christians who do).

Another random site:
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/heaven.shtml Summarised in
these sentences: "If none of these are correct, who gets to go to
heaven?" you may ask. The answer is simple. The people who get to go
to heaven are the ones who "get right with God" by beginning a
relationship with Him through His Son Jesus Christ. "

Lovely. Then you can use the same site to explain to me that "Christians
believe" that evolution is an atheist conspiracy and that dinosaurs
were alive a few thousand years ago.


From the New York Times: "The Rev. Richard A. Rhem has been branded a
heretic by his own Protestant denomination, the Reformed Church in
America, for suggesting that faith in Jesus is not the only path to
heaven."
From http://www.helium.com/tm/604449/answ...eaven-actually
"The answer to the question, "Who goes to heaven and who goes to
hell?", is actually very, very simple. There is but one way to
Heaven, according to the Scriptures. It is Jesus Christ.
Anyone who rejects the Lord Jesus Christ and does not believe on Him
and His sacrifice will go to hell. It does not matter how much "good"
they may do. "Goodness" and "good deeds" do not buy entrance into
Heaven."


Etc. etc. etc.

Yep. Christians believe all sorts of things. There are plenty who
believe that anyone who isn't *exactly* like them is going to
spend an eternity in agony. There are even many who seem to
find this belief safisfying. I have no problem with you mentioning
this and I'll stand beside you in opposing those beliefs. But when
you say "if you're Christian, you think all non-Christians go to hell"
as though it includes all Christians, then I take issue. How would
you feel if I said "If you're a man, you think women are inferior."?
Do you think I couldn't find some random websites to back up my
claim?

Diane L.

"Diane L." wrote in message
...

The Church of England doesn't really believe in Hell anymore
http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1996/01/31/ (I can't find
direct link to the report in question, but this gives a summary).

I tried the link, but it didn't work...

The Catholic Church still believes in Hell, but has a somewhat
hazy idea of who goes there. "Those who, through no fault of
their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but
who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved
by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it
through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve
eternal salvation." and ""The plan of salvation also includes
those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst
whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,
and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's
judge on the last day."
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

I know quite a lot of Anglicans and Catholics - most of them have a pretty
firm belief in an afterlife, and most of them seperate it into 2 distinct
places - Heaven for those who worship Jesus and Hell for those that don't.
There are a few members who are a little more liberal. I think that in order
to call yourself Anglican though, you are still expected to believe "the 39
articles". You can see a list of these at
http://www.latimer.org.nz/39articles.htm


Here's a very random website:
http://christdot.org/modules.php?nam...ticle&sid=5915
Summarised in one sentence: "Scripture is clear in several spots that
only way to the Father is through Jesus."

Did you read the discussion on that page, or just the first message?
There are several posts from Christians who *don't* believe that any
non-Christian goes to Hell (and several posts from Christians who do).

No, I didn't read through the entire page. Interesting to see people asking
questions. I really don't think there are any answers. Just personal
answers. Theories that best suit your own understanding. But I find
organised religions so very rarely accept people who make up their own minds
about which parts of the religion are "real" and which parts are, maybe, not
so literal. It so often seems to be an all or nothing approach. Hence the
issues that are worrying so many Christian religions today regarding the
ordination of women, acceptance of homosexuals, etc.

Another random site:
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/heaven.shtml Summarised in
these sentences: "If none of these are correct, who gets to go to
heaven?" you may ask. The answer is simple. The people who get to go
to heaven are the ones who "get right with God" by beginning a
relationship with Him through His Son Jesus Christ. "

Lovely. Then you can use the same site to explain to me that "Christians
believe" that evolution is an atheist conspiracy and that dinosaurs
were alive a few thousand years ago.

I would. Except it's such a crackpot theory that I find it difficult people
take it seriously...


From the New York Times: "The Rev. Richard A. Rhem has been branded a
heretic by his own Protestant denomination, the Reformed Church in
America, for suggesting that faith in Jesus is not the only path to
heaven."
From http://www.helium.com/tm/604449/answ...eaven-actually
"The answer to the question, "Who goes to heaven and who goes to
hell?", is actually very, very simple. There is but one way to
Heaven, according to the Scriptures. It is Jesus Christ.
Anyone who rejects the Lord Jesus Christ and does not believe on Him
and His sacrifice will go to hell. It does not matter how much "good"
they may do. "Goodness" and "good deeds" do not buy entrance into
Heaven."


Etc. etc. etc.

Yep. Christians believe all sorts of things. There are plenty who
believe that anyone who isn't *exactly* like them is going to
spend an eternity in agony. There are even many who seem to
find this belief safisfying. I have no problem with you mentioning
this and I'll stand beside you in opposing those beliefs. But when
you say "if you're Christian, you think all non-Christians go to hell"
as though it includes all Christians, then I take issue. How would
you feel if I said "If you're a man, you think women are inferior."?
Do you think I couldn't find some random websites to back up my
claim?

Fair enough. However, as I said, from my own experience of Christians, and
of the people who run Christian churches, this is not a wide-spread
viewpoint.

"Diane L." wrote in message
...
Stephen Wilson wrote:
"Diane L." wrote in message
...
Stephen Wilson wrote:
"The Doctor" wrote in message
...

You are the one who needs to tell me. Where are your ancestors
going that lived before Christ? To Hell?

If they were not Jews.

Idiot. Christians believe that everyone went to hell before Jesus,
and since Jesus, everyone who fails to accept Jesus as their lord
and master goes to hell.

*Some* Christians believe that. Many don't.

Jews do not accept Jesus as their saviour. Jews don't have the same
idea of hell as Christians. So if you're Christian, you think all
non-Christians go to hell. That includes Jews.

Please don't generalise about what Christians believe. Even a
moderate amount of research would show you that you are
mistaken.

I've done a moderate amount of research. I've found very few
Christians, both in real life and on the internet, who are prepared
to accept that anyone who doesn't worship Jesus will not face eternal
damnation. I'm glad you're not one of them, but in my experience,
your view is (sadly) in the minority.

The Church of England doesn't really believe in Hell anymore
http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1996/01/31/ (I can't find
direct link to the report in question, but this gives a summary).

The Catholic Church still believes in Hell, but has a somewhat
hazy idea of who goes there. "Those who, through no fault of
their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but
who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved
by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it

So they have to believe in the God, Jehovah in order to qualify then?

through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve
eternal salvation." and ""The plan of salvation also includes
those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst
whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,
and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's
judge on the last day."
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

So Hindus are doomed then since they don't believe in either Jehovah or
Christ or the Holy Spirit.

"Stephen Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Diane L." wrote in message
...

The Church of England doesn't really believe in Hell anymore
http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1996/01/31/ (I can't find
direct link to the report in question, but this gives a summary).

I tried the link, but it didn't work...

The Catholic Church still believes in Hell, but has a somewhat
hazy idea of who goes there. "Those who, through no fault of
their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but
who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved
by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it
through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve
eternal salvation." and ""The plan of salvation also includes
those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst
whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,
and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's
judge on the last day."
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

I know quite a lot of Anglicans and Catholics - most of them have a pretty
firm belief in an afterlife, and most of them seperate it into 2 distinct
places - Heaven for those who worship Jesus and Hell for those that don't.

And they are talking complete and utter crap because nowhere in the bible
does it say anyone apart from the angles 144,000 saints will set foot in
Heaven. The best everyone else can hope for is New Jerusalem which will be
located on New Earth and that's it, a place where there is no television or
computer games or cars or planes, or even any sex. So RTD can forget about
his traffic jams and cats shagging humans. Everyone else is going to be
tossed into some lake of fire along with Hades and Death. The episodes TEOTW
and Gridlock come to mind.

On 24 Oct, 23:47, "Agamemnon" wrote:

"Stephen Wilson" wrote in message
...

I know quite a lot of Anglicans and Catholics - most of them have a pretty
firm belief in an afterlife, and most of them seperate it into 2 distinct
places - Heaven for those who worship Jesus and Hell for those that don't.

And they are talking complete and utter crap because nowhere in the bible
does it say anyone apart from the angles

Non angli, sed angeli

144,000 saints will set foot in
Heaven. The best everyone else can hope for is New Jerusalem which will be
located on New Earth and that's it, a place where there is no television or
computer games or cars or planes, or even any sex. So RTD can forget about
his traffic jams and cats shagging humans. Everyone else is going to be
tossed into some lake of fire along with Hades and Death. The episodes TEOTW
and Gridlock come to mind.

Stephen Wilson wrote:
"Diane L." wrote in message
...

The Church of England doesn't really believe in Hell anymore
http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1996/01/31/ (I can't find
direct link to the report in question, but this gives a summary).

I tried the link, but it didn't work...

Odd. It still works for me.

The Catholic Church still believes in Hell, but has a somewhat
hazy idea of who goes there. "Those who, through no fault of
their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but
who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved
by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it
through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve
eternal salvation." and ""The plan of salvation also includes
those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst
whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,
and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's
judge on the last day."
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

I know quite a lot of Anglicans and Catholics - most of them have a
pretty firm belief in an afterlife, and most of them seperate it into
2 distinct places - Heaven for those who worship Jesus and Hell for
those that don't. There are a few members who are a little more
liberal. I think that in order to call yourself Anglican though, you
are still expected to believe "the 39 articles". You can see a list
of these at http://www.latimer.org.nz/39articles.htm

In that case, we've had several Anglican Bishops and Archbishops
who shouldn't have called themselves Anglicans.

Here's a very random website:
http://christdot.org/modules.php?nam...ticle&sid=5915
Summarised in one sentence: "Scripture is clear in several spots
that only way to the Father is through Jesus."

Did you read the discussion on that page, or just the first message?
There are several posts from Christians who *don't* believe that any
non-Christian goes to Hell (and several posts from Christians who
do).

No, I didn't read through the entire page. Interesting to see people
asking questions. I really don't think there are any answers. Just
personal answers. Theories that best suit your own understanding. But
I find organised religions so very rarely accept people who make up
their own minds about which parts of the religion are "real" and
which parts are, maybe, not so literal. It so often seems to be an
all or nothing approach. Hence the issues that are worrying so many
Christian religions today regarding the ordination of women,
acceptance of homosexuals, etc.

But doesn't the fact that these issues *are* being discussed indicate
that people are making up their own minds? Otherwise, we'd all
just do whatever we were told like the good little sheep many
atheists believe us to be.

Another random site:
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/heaven.shtml Summarised in
these sentences: "If none of these are correct, who gets to go to
heaven?" you may ask. The answer is simple. The people who get to go
to heaven are the ones who "get right with God" by beginning a
relationship with Him through His Son Jesus Christ. "

Lovely. Then you can use the same site to explain to me that
"Christians believe" that evolution is an atheist conspiracy and
that dinosaurs were alive a few thousand years ago.

I would. Except it's such a crackpot theory that I find it difficult
people take it seriously...

Me, too. In fact, I don't think you'd find many people in the UK
who could take it seriously. But it's on a website as what "Christians
believe ..."


From the New York Times: "The Rev. Richard A. Rhem has been branded
a heretic by his own Protestant denomination, the Reformed Church in
America, for suggesting that faith in Jesus is not the only path to
heaven."
From http://www.helium.com/tm/604449/answ...eaven-actually
"The answer to the question, "Who goes to heaven and who goes to
hell?", is actually very, very simple. There is but one way to
Heaven, according to the Scriptures. It is Jesus Christ.
Anyone who rejects the Lord Jesus Christ and does not believe on Him
and His sacrifice will go to hell. It does not matter how much
"good" they may do. "Goodness" and "good deeds" do not buy entrance
into Heaven."


Etc. etc. etc.

Yep. Christians believe all sorts of things. There are plenty who
believe that anyone who isn't *exactly* like them is going to
spend an eternity in agony. There are even many who seem to
find this belief safisfying. I have no problem with you mentioning
this and I'll stand beside you in opposing those beliefs. But when
you say "if you're Christian, you think all non-Christians go to
hell" as though it includes all Christians, then I take issue. How
would you feel if I said "If you're a man, you think women are
inferior."?
Do you think I couldn't find some random websites to back up my
claim?

Fair enough. However, as I said, from my own experience of
Christians, and of the people who run Christian churches, this is not
a wide-spread viewpoint.

Perhaps I've been lucky in the Christians I've met. Perhaps you've
been unlucky. All I was objecting to was your assertion that "If
you're a Christian, you believe *this*" when I know from personal
experience that it ain't necessarily so (I wonder who'll get *that*
reference). I'd just ask you not to be so dogmatic in future.

Diane L.

"Diane L." wrote in message
...
Stephen Wilson wrote:
"Diane L." wrote in message
...

The Church of England doesn't really believe in Hell anymore
http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1996/01/31/ (I can't find
direct link to the report in question, but this gives a summary).

I tried the link, but it didn't work...

Odd. It still works for me.

The Catholic Church still believes in Hell, but has a somewhat
hazy idea of who goes there. "Those who, through no fault of
their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but
who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved
by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it
through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve
eternal salvation." and ""The plan of salvation also includes
those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst
whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,
and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's
judge on the last day."
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

I know quite a lot of Anglicans and Catholics - most of them have a
pretty firm belief in an afterlife, and most of them seperate it into
2 distinct places - Heaven for those who worship Jesus and Hell for
those that don't. There are a few members who are a little more
liberal. I think that in order to call yourself Anglican though, you
are still expected to believe "the 39 articles". You can see a list
of these at http://www.latimer.org.nz/39articles.htm

In that case, we've had several Anglican Bishops and Archbishops
who shouldn't have called themselves Anglicans.

Here's a very random website:
http://christdot.org/modules.php?nam...ticle&sid=5915
Summarised in one sentence: "Scripture is clear in several spots
that only way to the Father is through Jesus."

Did you read the discussion on that page, or just the first message?
There are several posts from Christians who *don't* believe that any
non-Christian goes to Hell (and several posts from Christians who
do).

No, I didn't read through the entire page. Interesting to see people
asking questions. I really don't think there are any answers. Just
personal answers. Theories that best suit your own understanding. But
I find organised religions so very rarely accept people who make up
their own minds about which parts of the religion are "real" and
which parts are, maybe, not so literal. It so often seems to be an
all or nothing approach. Hence the issues that are worrying so many
Christian religions today regarding the ordination of women,
acceptance of homosexuals, etc.

But doesn't the fact that these issues *are* being discussed indicate
that people are making up their own minds? Otherwise, we'd all
just do whatever we were told like the good little sheep many
atheists believe us to be.

Another random site:
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/heaven.shtml Summarised in
these sentences: "If none of these are correct, who gets to go to
heaven?" you may ask. The answer is simple. The people who get to go
to heaven are the ones who "get right with God" by beginning a
relationship with Him through His Son Jesus Christ. "

Lovely. Then you can use the same site to explain to me that
"Christians believe" that evolution is an atheist conspiracy and
that dinosaurs were alive a few thousand years ago.

I would. Except it's such a crackpot theory that I find it difficult
people take it seriously...

Me, too. In fact, I don't think you'd find many people in the UK
who could take it seriously. But it's on a website as what "Christians
believe ..."


From the New York Times: "The Rev. Richard A. Rhem has been branded
a heretic by his own Protestant denomination, the Reformed Church in
America, for suggesting that faith in Jesus is not the only path to
heaven."
From http://www.helium.com/tm/604449/answ...eaven-actually
"The answer to the question, "Who goes to heaven and who goes to
hell?", is actually very, very simple. There is but one way to
Heaven, according to the Scriptures. It is Jesus Christ.
Anyone who rejects the Lord Jesus Christ and does not believe on Him
and His sacrifice will go to hell. It does not matter how much
"good" they may do. "Goodness" and "good deeds" do not buy entrance
into Heaven."


Etc. etc. etc.

Yep. Christians believe all sorts of things. There are plenty who
believe that anyone who isn't *exactly* like them is going to
spend an eternity in agony. There are even many who seem to
find this belief safisfying. I have no problem with you mentioning
this and I'll stand beside you in opposing those beliefs. But when
you say "if you're Christian, you think all non-Christians go to
hell" as though it includes all Christians, then I take issue. How
would you feel if I said "If you're a man, you think women are
inferior."?
Do you think I couldn't find some random websites to back up my
claim?

Fair enough. However, as I said, from my own experience of
Christians, and of the people who run Christian churches, this is not
a wide-spread viewpoint.

Perhaps I've been lucky in the Christians I've met. Perhaps you've
been unlucky. All I was objecting to was your assertion that "If
you're a Christian, you believe *this*" when I know from personal
experience that it ain't necessarily so (I wonder who'll get *that*
reference).



What - you mean the Gershwin song that goes "It ain't necessary, It ain't
necessary, It ain't necessarily sooo-ooo"?

What's that reference mean then?


I'd just ask you not to be so dogmatic in future.

Diane L.