PVR replacement - thanks, and the next step

In a separate thread I asked for your advice on the current state of play
with PVRs and DVD recorders.

You have confirmed my fears that we haven't moved on a jot in the past two
years, apart from shoe-horning some HD functionality into them.

Thanks, first of all, for all your comments. I really appreciate it.

So, I'll be buying my Mum a Hummy to replace the failed Digifusion, and
feeding it through a DVD recorder to the TV so she can archive the odd
programme if required.

Now, can any of you recommend a good DVD recorder? It must be capable of
recording from a SCART socket, and it must have SCART passthrough. It must
also work as a standard DVD player, of course.

It does NOT need to have a hard drive, and frankly I think it might be
easier if it didn't have a tuner in it either, as this might lead to more
confusion for the old girl.

I bet you can't buy a DVD recorder without a tuner, but I know you CAN buy
them which won't record from the SCART input, so I don't want to get caught
out like that.

If any of you can recommend a suitable recorder I'd be most grateful.

Thanks,

Steve

"Steve Thackery" wrote in message
...
Thanks, first of all, for all your comments. I really appreciate it.

I bet you can't buy a DVD recorder without a tuner, ...[snip]

I'd also prefer them not to have tuners, but I know the argument is: it all
comes down to mass production, wouldn't be worth while just for you etc..
What the customers expect... Now most have at least one digital set top
box what's the point, especially when the tuner is analogue.

The annoying thing is there appears no way of turning the analogue tuner
off.

My conspiratorial 'they all in together' thought is that manufactures are
persuaded by the BBC (perhaps for cash in some roundabout behind the scenes
way) to fit tuners, so purchasers details must be sent to the TV licensing.
This would help significantly to keep the register of viewers up to date.

Roger R

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:17:53 +0100, "Roger R"
wrote:


"Steve Thackery" wrote in message
...
Thanks, first of all, for all your comments. I really appreciate it.

I bet you can't buy a DVD recorder without a tuner, ...[snip]

I'd also prefer them not to have tuners, but I know the argument is: it all
comes down to mass production, wouldn't be worth while just for you etc..
What the customers expect... Now most have at least one digital set top
box what's the point, especially when the tuner is analogue.

The annoying thing is there appears no way of turning the analogue tuner
off.

My conspiratorial 'they all in together' thought is that manufactures are
persuaded by the BBC (perhaps for cash in some roundabout behind the scenes
way) to fit tuners, so purchasers details must be sent to the TV licensing.
This would help significantly to keep the register of viewers up to date.


I'd Agree if we were talking about TVs - the tuner in TV is surplus to
a lot of people's requirements.

DVD recorders are a much more clear-cut case though. Most DVD
recorders will be bought as VCR replacements by people who don't
understand what a PVR could do for them. External tuners don't work
well for a machine that has to change channels automatically for timer
recordings, even with attempted "fixes" by systems like VideoPlus
Deluxe. The tuner really needs to be part of the machine.

For times when the tuner might get in the way, perhaps there's a
market for a gadget that outputs a modulated UHF signal with a text
message saying "YOU'RE USING THE WRONG TUNER!". You could then tune
all the recorder's presets to that channel. I knew I'd hung on to my
old ZX Spectrum for something...

Cheers,

Colin.

"Colin Stamp" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:17:53 +0100, "Roger R"
wrote:


"Steve Thackery" wrote in message
.. .
Thanks, first of all, for all your comments. I really appreciate it.

I bet you can't buy a DVD recorder without a tuner, ...[snip]

I'd also prefer them not to have tuners, but I know the argument is: it
all
comes down to mass production, wouldn't be worth while just for you etc..
What the customers expect... Now most have at least one digital set top
box what's the point, especially when the tuner is analogue.

The annoying thing is there appears no way of turning the analogue tuner
off.

My conspiratorial 'they all in together' thought is that manufactures are
persuaded by the BBC (perhaps for cash in some roundabout behind the
scenes
way) to fit tuners, so purchasers details must be sent to the TV
licensing.
This would help significantly to keep the register of viewers up to date.


I'd Agree if we were talking about TVs - the tuner in TV is surplus to
a lot of people's requirements.

DVD recorders are a much more clear-cut case though. Most DVD
recorders will be bought as VCR replacements by people who don't
understand what a PVR could do for them. External tuners don't work
well for a machine that has to change channels automatically for timer
recordings, even with attempted "fixes" by systems like VideoPlus
Deluxe. The tuner really needs to be part of the machine.

For times when the tuner might get in the way, perhaps there's a
market for a gadget that outputs a modulated UHF signal with a text
message saying "YOU'RE USING THE WRONG TUNER!". You could then tune
all the recorder's presets to that channel. I knew I'd hung on to my
old ZX Spectrum for something...

Cheers,

Colin.

Maybe I'm being a bit thick here but I can't understand what exactly you're
getting at. My Philips DVDR7260H DVD/HDD recorder has an analogue and a
digital tuner. It also uses the Gemstar GUIDE Plus+ EPG and, within that,
you can select the source of the signal.

For instance, for BBC1, BBC2, ITV, C4 and FIVE, I personally have set the
source as being the analogue tuner. My Sky box is connected to the "EXT 2"
scart, so the source for recording any Sky channels is set to EXT 2, and for
any Freeview channels the source is the digital tuner.

As you suggested, we bought the DVD recorder as a replacement when our old
VCR died, so I cannot understand why someone would want a DVD recorder
without a tuner - that's the whole point of them, isn't it?

John

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:04:19 +0100, "John" wrote:


"Colin Stamp" wrote in message
.. .


I'd Agree if we were talking about TVs - the tuner in TV is surplus to
a lot of people's requirements.

DVD recorders are a much more clear-cut case though. Most DVD
recorders will be bought as VCR replacements by people who don't
understand what a PVR could do for them. External tuners don't work
well for a machine that has to change channels automatically for timer
recordings, even with attempted "fixes" by systems like VideoPlus
Deluxe. The tuner really needs to be part of the machine.

For times when the tuner might get in the way, perhaps there's a
market for a gadget that outputs a modulated UHF signal with a text
message saying "YOU'RE USING THE WRONG TUNER!". You could then tune
all the recorder's presets to that channel. I knew I'd hung on to my
old ZX Spectrum for something...

Cheers,

Colin.

Maybe I'm being a bit thick here but I can't understand what exactly you're
getting at. My Philips DVDR7260H DVD/HDD recorder has an analogue and a
digital tuner. It also uses the Gemstar GUIDE Plus+ EPG and, within that,
you can select the source of the signal.

For instance, for BBC1, BBC2, ITV, C4 and FIVE, I personally have set the
source as being the analogue tuner. My Sky box is connected to the "EXT 2"
scart, so the source for recording any Sky channels is set to EXT 2, and for
any Freeview channels the source is the digital tuner.

As you suggested, we bought the DVD recorder as a replacement when our old
VCR died, so I cannot understand why someone would want a DVD recorder
without a tuner - that's the whole point of them, isn't it?

John


Are you replying to me or to Roger R? My point is also that the
majority of DVD recorders will benefit enormously from having built-in
tuners.

In your case though, I'd change the Sky box to Sky+ and use that for
virtually everything. A proper twin-tuner PVR beats a DVD recorder
into a cocked hat, even if it does have a hard drive.

The DVD recorder would then only be used to record once in a blue
moon, to either archive stuff from the Sky+ box, or to burn a disk to
give to someone else. The tuner in the DVD recorder wouldn't be
needed.

Cheers,

Colin.

In article ,
Mike Henry wrote:
In , "John"
wrote:

Maybe I'm being a bit thick here but I can't understand what exactly
you're getting at. My Philips DVDR7260H DVD/HDD recorder has an
analogue and a digital tuner.

Then the analogue tuner is the one that's not wanted/needed and only
included because of inertia.

Not so. there are people who cannot receive digital tv, yet want a
recorder that might last them more than a few years. Both types of tuner
provide for this.

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

The DVD recorder would then only be used to record once in a blue
moon, to either archive stuff from the Sky+ box, or to burn a disk to
give to someone else. The tuner in the DVD recorder wouldn't be
needed.

Exactly!

To remind you where we started: what I, (and probably lots of other people)
need is a full-blown twin digital PVR - like the Hummy - that will archive
to DVD on the odd occasion I want to save something I've recorded.

You simply can't buy one. Frankly, this astonishes me.

So, the next best thing is a separate DVD recorder to do the archiving for
you (and it could also act as your DVD player). In this instance we don't
want a tuner, as it only adds to the user interface confusion.

Think of a simple DVD player, like you can buy in Currys for £40. No tuner,
it just plays DVDs onto the SCART socket on the back. Then add another
SCART and give it the ability to record DVDs from it.

In the absence of a dual-digital PVR with DVD, that's what I want. And you
can't buy one of those, either!

Why are the manufacturers missing this obvious market segment? If Humax or
Topfield added a DVD burner to their box, so it would archive recordings
PLUS act as your DVD player as well, they'd clean up a substantial market
sector.

Steve

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:22:04 +0100, "Steve Thackery"
wrote:

The DVD recorder would then only be used to record once in a blue
moon, to either archive stuff from the Sky+ box, or to burn a disk to
give to someone else. The tuner in the DVD recorder wouldn't be
needed.

Exactly!

To remind you where we started: what I, (and probably lots of other people)
need is a full-blown twin digital PVR - like the Hummy - that will archive
to DVD on the odd occasion I want to save something I've recorded.

You and me both.

You simply can't buy one. Frankly, this astonishes me.

I'd buy one too but, alas, the marketing men say no and, for once, I
think they're right. The box does get quite a lot more complicated
once the DVD drive goes in. Users will expect to be able to dub in
both directions, record off-air to either drive, record from external
sources to HD etc. etc. They won't understand the difference between
PS recordings on the DVD and TS recordings on the HD. They'll expect
DVB subtitles to be recorded on DVDs etc. Making the user interface
simple and logical will be quite a tall order, then once you've done
all that, sales will be tiny because people won't be prepared to pay
the price - consumers are *******s.


So, the next best thing is a separate DVD recorder to do the archiving for
you (and it could also act as your DVD player). In this instance we don't
want a tuner, as it only adds to the user interface confusion.

Think of a simple DVD player, like you can buy in Currys for £40. No tuner,
it just plays DVDs onto the SCART socket on the back. Then add another
SCART and give it the ability to record DVDs from it.

In the absence of a dual-digital PVR with DVD, that's what I want. And you
can't buy one of those, either!

Again, sales would be miniscule. People will expect it to be about
half the price of one with a tuner, whereas it'll probably only knock
about ten quid off the bill of materials. It's just not worth leaving
the tuner out.

Cheers,

Colin.

Steve Thackery wrote:
The DVD recorder would then only be used to record once in a blue
moon, to either archive stuff from the Sky+ box, or to burn a disk to
give to someone else. The tuner in the DVD recorder wouldn't be
needed.

Exactly!

To remind you where we started: what I, (and probably lots of other
people) need is a full-blown twin digital PVR - like the Hummy - that
will archive to DVD on the odd occasion I want to save something I've
recorded.
You simply can't buy one. Frankly, this astonishes me.

So, the next best thing is a separate DVD recorder to do the
archiving for you (and it could also act as your DVD player). In
this instance we don't want a tuner, as it only adds to the user
interface confusion.
Think of a simple DVD player, like you can buy in Currys for £40. No
tuner, it just plays DVDs onto the SCART socket on the back. Then
add another SCART and give it the ability to record DVDs from it.

In the absence of a dual-digital PVR with DVD, that's what I want. And you
can't buy one of those, either!

Why are the manufacturers missing this obvious market segment? If
Humax or Topfield added a DVD burner to their box, so it would
archive recordings PLUS act as your DVD player as well, they'd clean
up a substantial market sector.

Steve

Out of interest, do any PVRs currently available allow editing of
programmes? ie removing adverts before viewing or archiving. If not then a
DVD/HDD recorder would still be required.
--
Adrian

In article ,
Colin Stamp wrote:
My conspiratorial 'they all in together' thought is that manufactures
are persuaded by the BBC (perhaps for cash in some roundabout behind
the scenes way) to fit tuners, so purchasers details must be sent to
the TV licensing. This would help significantly to keep the register of
viewers up to date.


I'd Agree if we were talking about TVs - the tuner in TV is surplus to
a lot of people's requirements.

Years ago Philips had their matchline system where the TV was just a
monitor. Everything integrated via a sort of AV amp. Didn't sell too well,
though.

--
He who laughs last, thinks slowest*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.